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Thread: Service Dog Quesion

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    Sorry "emotional support" dogs are not covered under the ADA



    http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
    ah okay, thank you. I remembered incorrectly should have researched to double check myself.

  2. #22
    Senior Member ~Lin's Avatar
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    Ok, LOTS of comments so its going to take me some time to reply

    Since so many misunderstood my phrasing I'll address that first. The ADA does not discuss service dogs. All service dog regulation is written by and handled by the DOJ, who also handles Titles II and III of the ADA as I said before.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrashTestDumby View Post
    Collisions between local/state Breed Specific Legislation (BSL's) have occurred several times. As an example: a recent case involved a disabled veteran and retired police officer. In his decision for Sak & Leifer v. The City of Aurelia, Iowa (search Judge Bennett's decisions page for "sak"), federal district court Judge Bennett agreed: where a service animal is concerned, federal law overrules state and/or political subdivisions laws/ordinances banning specific breeds.
    There is some precedent involving breed bans and service dog, and a lawyer would be smart to use that as well as the DOJ discussion I linked previously. There is a difference between case law and federal regulations. Since there is currently no written law, in court its going to come down to the decision of the judge. Furthermore, since we're discussing civil law and not criminal law to get something done about it you HAVE to go to court. For example, if a town seizes a service dog due to the breed you're going to have to take the matter to court, you can't call up the police and say "my dog is a service dog, return him now." You have to follow the correct civil channels. I really wish there WAS written law about breed bans, my service dog is a German Shepherd.

    Again, as for your claim that the ADA does not protect service animals and miniature horses,
    Since the ada reformation act of 2008 redefined service dogs (put into effect March 15th 2011) only dogs fall under the definition of service dogs. This was due to instances such as full sized horses and and other animals being used as service dogs. As I mentioned previously its always important to remember that all service dog law falls under "reasonable accomodations." They decided non-canine service animals were not reasonable, and so addressed it in the reformation act.

    When it comes down to service dog law you have both federal law and state law. For example, service dogs in training are not addressed by federal law (under the DOJ.) But many states address them in their laws. Indiana gives service dogs in training the same *access as service dogs when accompanied by a service dog trainer. Some states will further define what qualifies as a service dog trainer.

    You cannot take away the civil rights of the ADA/DOJ by state rights, but you can offer more rights. However to claim these rights, you must also follow any requirements by the state law. If say utah offered SDITs the same *access as SDs but requires them to be wearing a clearly marked blue cape, they must be wearing that clearly marked blue cape for public access.

    *Its always important to note that when addressing service dogs and access that the access actually applies to the disabled individual or service dog trainer and not the dog alone. A service dog is not a service dog when unaccompanied by their disabled handler. For example if you are disabled and have a service dog, your spouse may not bring the service animal into public areas where pets are'nt allowed without you.
    (c) Service animals -- (1) General. Generally, a public accommodation shall modify policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of a service animal by an individual with a disability.
    source:http://www.ada.gov/reg3a.html

    Quote Originally Posted by baldfatdad
    What do you mean by the dog is "self trained"? If this means you trained the dog. That could be your biggest problem.
    If the animal is trained by one of the organizations that does that, you should have some paper work that you can present.
    Service dogs may be trained by their handlers in the united states. The law was written this way to provide the maximum civil rights to the person with a disability. Further, there is no law requiring for paperwork to be showed and its actually illegal for paperwork/certification be requested in exchange for public access. Unfortunately many businesses are not familiar with service dog law and will try asking this. The best protection is to be informed of the laws, and its great to carry things such as the DOJ business brief to help educate them so your visit and the visit of future service dog handlers goes smoothly. Due to the rise in service dog fraud (much perpetuated by purchase of fake "certifications" online) many businesses are hasseling service dog handlers.

    The best protection for the business is to know service dog law especially that pertaining to what you can and cannot ask. You may ask if a dog is a service dog, and what tasks they perform for the handler. If a handler cannot easily answer the task question you may ask them to leave. As mentioned earlier by another member, businesses also may ask a service dog to leave if they are causing a problem. If the business knows the law and when they can deny access they are protecting themselves even in the case of a legitimate service dog. If a case goes to court, the individual will have to prove that they are disabled AND the status of their dog as a service animal.

    The conversation of service dog law and a change to require certification is a very heated debate and quite a large subject on its own. If you're interested in learning more, that one should probably have its own thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by MillsWheels
    the dog simply must be medically necessary, perfectly behaved, and performing tasks for the owner based on the medical necessity. sometimes they are emotional support SDs. I've even heard of monkey being an emotional support service animal but it was denied access over time, which I can understand.
    As T8 repeated, emotional support dogs are not service dogs. I briefly addressed that in my earlier post.

    In the area of working dogs we have many. There are police dogs, SAR, therapy, emotional support, skilled companion... As I mentioned earlier, the public access is granted to the disabled individual and not the dog itself. There are laws about public access as well as housing. When it comes to public access, again only service dogs (or SAR and police dogs while actively working)are allowed. With housing, both service dogs and emotional support animals may be housed in no pet housing. Emotional support animals may also accompany their owners on airplanes. To have an emotional support animal, you must be disabled and the animal must be an active part of your mental health treatment as dicated by your medical professional. Therapy animals have no extra public access or housing. Their access when working is an invited access by the institution.

    Housing sources: FHA, HUD
    Air Carrier Access Act
    Emotional Support Animals

    And I'd like to repeat again that we are discussing civil law here, and the right channels need to be taken. When it comes to housing you cannot simply move in to no pet housing. You must submit a written request for accomodation. When flying, you should contact the airline in advance to work out everything. If you feel your civil rights have been impigned on, you may take it to court. In court you will have to prove that you are disabled according to the ADA, and that your dog meets the requirements to be considered a service animal.

    Section 902 Definition of Disability

    I hope this has cleared up the confusion! If there are any more questions ask away. Or if I missed anything please point it out

    Lin
    Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project
    Last edited by ~Lin; 04-07-2012 at 04:05 PM. Reason: fix links
    Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

    I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by baldfatdad View Post
    If the animal is trained by one of the organizations that does that, you should have some paper work that you can present.
    Again, the law says no one can ask you for documentation that the service animal (dog) or miniature horse is trained. Again, here are the links to Title 28 part 35 (government entities) and Title 28 part 36 (private/commercial entities) - both have paragraphs titled "Inquiries" and what may be asked. Both say:
    A public entity shall not ask about the nature or extent of a person's disability, but may make two inquiries to determine whether an animal qualifies as a service animal. A public entity may ask if the animal is required because of a disability and what work or task the animal has been trained to perform. A public entity shall not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal.
    There are many organizations which do wonderful things with dogs (and miniature horses), and the National Federation of the Blind even lists a few. But service animals cover many disabilities including Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, diabetes, Autism and more. Attempting to develop standards for certification would be a futile endeavor. Therefore, no national or international standards for training exist.

    A certification or other documentation is worth only the paper it's written on in the eyes of the law (no pun intended). In fact, anyone can pay a few bucks to get a "certification" over the Internet for any dog.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ~Lin View Post
    Since the ada reformation act of 2008 redefined service dogs (put into effect March 15th 2011) only dogs fall under the definition of service dogs. This was due to instances such as full sized horses and and other animals being used as service dogs. [...] They decided non-canine service animals were not reasonable, and so addressed it in the reformation act.
    Again, I re-post links to the ADA update, the Code of Federal Regulations Title 28 part 35 and Title 28 part 36. In all cases they define a "service animal" as a dog. And in all cases, they provide for the use of miniature horses. For example, in parts 35 and 36 of Title 28 the law says:
    A public entity shall make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of a miniature horse by an individual with a disability if the miniature horse has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of the individual with a disability.
    And for a number of reasons such as (believe it or not) some disabled people are allergic to dogs, some disabled people are afraid of dogs, the cost of training a miniature horse v. a dog are about the same ($10,000 to $20,000) but the service longevity of a dog is around 7 to 10 years while for a miniature horse it's around 20 to 30 years.

    There are other reasons one might choose a miniature horse over a dog, such as, but not limited to:

    1. Horses can (generally) support more weight than a dog; useful for getting in and out of a wheelchair, balance, etc.
    2. Horses can pull greater weight over a greater distance for an extended period (e.g. someone who uses their animal to pull their wheelchair or other mobility device).
    3. Horses do not get fleas.
    4. Horses shed only twice a year.
    5. Horses can track danger with both eyes individually and independently (eyes are on side of head) and have a 350° field of vision.
    6. Horses do not form tight emotional bonds with their handler.

  5. #25
    I gotta admit, I don't feel miniature horses are appropriate as service animals. Dogs, sure, but to have a service animal to pull you around seems remarkably 1890ish. Get a fricking power chair. I would (if I ruled the world) however make an exception for disabled Amish people, as long as they put one of those orange triangles on the back of their chair.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by KrashTestDumby View Post
    [*]Horses do not form tight emotional bonds with their handler.
    have to disagree very strongly, I started riding and working with horses about ten years ago and they form INCREDIBLY tight bonds. some horses can be very much, a one person animal just like a dog can. In general, horses are just as capable as dogs as being tightly bonded. The mare I used for the better part of my active riding years, which have been non existant the past 3 years aside from a few brief but very special moments, was very attached to me and still is even though 6-9 months might go by before I see her again. She only tolerates most people, but is very emotionally bonded to myself and her owner. No they can't cuddle in your lap or behave quite the same way as a dog to show that affection but spend enough time with them and find the right ones, and you will develop deep connection. I love when she just leans into me and sighs, and stays there without moving for minutes at a time just studying me, really powerful - animals are amazing.

    otherwise, thanks for sticking up for the mini as a service animal! It's all up to what works for you, and what you prefer.

  7. #27
    I also believe horses got the boot with the new regs as of March.
    Get involved in politics as if your life depended on it, because it does. -- Justin Dart

    I shall not tolerate ignorance or hate speech on this site.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    I gotta admit, I don't feel miniature horses are appropriate as service animals. Dogs, sure, but to have a service animal to pull you around seems remarkably 1890ish. Get a fricking power chair. I would (if I ruled the world) however make an exception for disabled Amish people, as long as they put one of those orange triangles on the back of their chair.
    What a wacky world that would be Mr.Clint! Reminded me of the Tom Petty song if he were King of the World.

  9. #29
    I have a program from a spring training game I went to in FL last month.
    Under the guest guide it lists:

    "Animals are not allowed in Hammond Stadium with the exception of certified guide dogs for the disabled."

    I wondered if there was an actual licence of certificate that had to be presented.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by t8burst View Post
    I gotta admit, I don't feel miniature horses are appropriate as service animals. Dogs, sure, but to have a service animal to pull you around seems remarkably 1890ish. Get a fricking power chair. I would (if I ruled the world) however make an exception for disabled Amish people, as long as they put one of those orange triangles on the back of their chair.
    I had a Lab that LOVED to pull my chair. I was never late to anything, lol. Our regular speed was at about a jog. You could steer by just turning the chair with your body and he would turn in that direction. He would also pull carts with groceries, pull trash bags to the dumpster, etc.

    I had an arm free to hold stuff or whatever while he pulled. We also went hiking and he would run and pull the chair down the trails.

    I never had problems with my shoulders when I had him. He never had an injury or suffered anything bad from being a pulling dog and lived until almost 16. Never needed a powerchair with him, but I got one after he died. Its not nearly as freeing as a dog+manual chair.

    Then again dogs require care more than powerchairs, obviously. And having a dog in public with you sucks. I hate it. But I love dogs

    My powerchair is broken down now, but when I get my new manual it should be easier to get around. I'd like to at some point get another pulling dog and that freewheel attachment. My Lab would have loved that thing and I'm sure we would have been at a full run down trails with it

    Horses I agree with you, unless its a very special cicrumstance and the owners are horse people with land for horses and such. I would think they would not be able to be kept in a typical suburb/city environment and livestock is ususally illegal anyway (I wonder if the law would over ride that?). Then again I don't know much about horses. I find horse people who say it is a good idea and horse people who are on a mission to prevent it saying horses are not capable or safe to do that kind of work. I can't see how you would get anywhere without being completely swamped by the public. Its bad with a dog, I can't imagine you being able to get anywhere with a cute little pony.

    I've seen a great video of a working guide animal mini pony and it was great. I guess I'm on the fence with those.

    I thought the were removed from the law and only allowed if the businesses said it was cool? (Seems like the info above says businesses can make reasonable accomidations if possible) I could be wrong I guess.
    Last edited by Sparkleraptor; 04-08-2012 at 03:53 PM.

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