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Thread: For those who understand spanish (Dr. Vaquero)

  1. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by lunasicc42 View Post
    JamesMCM, it is published , thats what we are discussing
    The paper says additional details for things like b, b, s are in the supplementary data. So I'm trying to see the supplementary data.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Man View Post
    The paper says additional details for things like b, b, s are in the supplementary data. So I'm trying to see the supplementary data.
    Took me a while, but finally found it. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

    http://www.celltherapyjournal.org/ar...30377-2/addons
    KB

  3. #193
    Senior Member lunasicc42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Man View Post
    The paper says additional details for things like b, b, s are in the supplementary data. So I'm trying to see the supplementary data.
    Sorry I can't locate that either
    "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

    "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


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  4. #194
    Senior Member lunasicc42's Avatar
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    "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

    "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


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  5. #195
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    If results are as amazing then this treatment should be public for all patients very soon. Don't know when they will start phase three and then how much time required for approval.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesMcM View Post
    Thisis all interesting, I'm not doubting the results in anyway is just very foreign. There's so little information we can find and gather. Hopefully once it is published, if it happens the information will explode everywhere. KIM is our only source of information, obviously there is a cultural/language barrier with everything. KIM Are they planning on doing a phase 2B with cervical injuries?
    It dosent depend on me as soon we get more funding this goes ahead and I will be included, but I dont know when. There cant be more info for the time being cause this a press release next month will be the official release press and everything.

  7. #197
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    This is the first truly encouraging stem cell study I've seen. I've no reason to suspect their procedures and results. All subjects were ASIA A, chronic completes and all showed quantitative, objective improvement.

  8. #198
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    Another version with data tables: http://www.celltherapyjournal.org/ar...%2930377-2/pdf

  9. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by KIM View Post
    It dosent depend on me as soon we get more funding this goes ahead and I will be included, but I dont know when. There cant be more info for the time being cause this a press release next month will be the official release press and everything.
    No I understand it doesn't depend on you! I just mean that really you've been our only source of information on this clinical trial, you have been talking about it for quite some time I think we all doubted what you were saying, seems we were mistaken! There have been no quadriplegics treated? Does the doctor plan on doing any cervical injuries? Any idea why he chose only paraplegics. And how much money is needed?

  10. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by kbailey View Post
    Took me a while, but finally found it. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

    http://www.celltherapyjournal.org/ar...30377-2/addons
    Thank you for posting this. Its way better than the paper itself. People should skip the paper and just read the supplementary data.

    This is my opinion on the paper. I make many assumptions.

    a) I do not trust Dr. Vaquero. That is my personal opinion. This is based on his animal studies that to me were too good to be true. So, I take this study with a huge grain of salt. At least, this study does not claim anything too outrageous nor does it claim long distance regeneration (although he says its possible). So that is a plus. Here is Dr. Young's opinion on one of Dr. Vaquero's animal studies: http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...hlight=Vaquero
    (Post #21). Dr. Vaquero claimed that treated rats had a bbb (walking) score of 17 out of 21 possible. 21 = normal rat. The control groups had bbb score of 0. No lab had ever had such results and no lab has anything even close to that since. It's been 10 years! Dr. Young says "If these results are as robust as they claim, there should be many laboratories showing these results. Let's see if this is true." Well, it's been 10 years!

    b) Things like bowel, bladder, and sexual recovery is based on a questionnaire to the patients. Right there, I throw it out. SCI patients, especially SCI, make shit up in their heads as recovery. SCI lie to themselves about any phantom sensation because they badly want to recover. I've seen people here claim recovery for scam stem cell centers & foot rub doctors. If you want me to believe in recovery of sensation or control in b,b,s, then it must be witnessed firsthand by clinicians and regulatory agencies or video. It's simple to do.
    But, nonetheless, there was no claimed FULL recovery of bladder, bowel, or sexual function. Except in 1 patient, in which they claim he had recovered ability to urinate and feel bladder normally.

    "From a clinical point of view, the improvement in bladder sphincter control results in the appearance of a feeling of "full bladder" and at a later stage by the identification of strange sensations, sometimes described as "flushing or heat" followed a few minutes later, of involuntary bladder emptying. The presence of these feelings, sometimes late in the follow-up (after 9 months, in patients 11 and 17) allows patients to are without collector when they are at home, as it gives them time to go to empty your bladder. One patient (patient 04) without any sensation of bladder filling prior to treatment, emptied his bladder by catheterization, he started feeling urination three month after surgery and evolved to a total control, emptying the bladder completely and entirely voluntary, at the end of the follow-up.(pg. 53).

    But there were many who reported partial sensation or partial control of bladder. As for bowel function:
    "It was a surprising and almost constant the information from patients about that after surgery, bowel movement was improved, so that they noticed peristalsis, and defecation was clearly modified in terms of frequency and time they needed, going even to defecate daily and within minutes, without need of laxatives. As the improvement observed with the IANR-SCIFRS scale, improvement is immediate and very strong in the first 3 months after surgery, it is progressive in time and is described as extremely rewarding in almost all periodic reports from our patients and their videotaped statements.(pg.62 supp.)."

    Nothing in that about being able to voluntarily defecate or feel the need to go. Its very ambiguous when they talk about peristalsis & reduced bowel program times. That could very well mean nothing. But the mean score on their scale used was 1.25 after 12 months. 1.0 = "Partial control without sensation or no control with partial sensation"(p.41-42 supp). So there were reports by the patients of having partial control or sensation.

    Sexual function:
    "In the IANR-SCIFRS scale, a final section related to sexual function, that rate independently, is contemplated. It applies only to men, and has also been subject of evaluation and statistical analysis throughout the study. Our analysis showed a progressive improvement, reaching statistical significant difference compared to baseline at 3 months after surgery. This improvements generally consisted of an increase in number and duration of erections, increased sensitivity, and even recovery of ejaculations, previously lost. One patient (patient 14, with SCI at D7-D8 level) reported involuntary loss of sperm that he had not had since the time of the SCI, more than 25 years ago."
    --So I'm guessing, the "One patient" who reported "involuntary loss of sperm", is the best recovery they had? I don't see any mention of voluntary ejaculation or Orgasm. So imo, sexual function was not restored.

    Again, the bbs was via a questionnaire. Meaningless to me, because I know SCI and how they make shlt up. The only objective evidence was urodynamics.
    "The ratio of maximum cystometric capacity and detrusor pressure determines bladder compliance, and, therefore, an increase in bladder compliance objectively reflects the improvements in bladder function after treatment. (p. 10)."

    I disagree that urodynamics of capacity & detrusor pressure objectively reflects sensation &/or control. I don't know why they couldn't test the patients for sensation/control while they already had them in the room while they had them in a chair, with sensors in their bladder & potentially up the rear (as many urodynamic tests do)!

    c) I'm pretty sure the patient with best motor return was the woman in the swimming pool. Not functional at all. Not much motor return via ASIA tests (mean score went from roughly 50 to 53). But scores ignore ab muscles which is where these patients were injured. Seems like there was a lot of recovery of pin-prick and light touch sensations (mean went from roughly 57 to 80) as you guys can see on the pictures of bodies with yellow & red. At least Asia tests are objective. So that does sound good that patients are gaining skin sensations. But they could be very dull sensations and not pre-injury like, I'm not sure.

    d) Overall, I don't trust Dr. Vaquero. But in this paper, he doesn't make any wild claims. Since most recoveries start by 3 months, as early as a week, this looks to me like a re-awakening intact circuitry as opposed to long distance regeneration. Especially because reported recovered sensation/motor was at the appropriate locations. Regeneration would not restore sensory axons to exact target in brain. Plus animal studies showed no long distance regeneration. But, that is ok. I think everyone needs to restore whatever remaining axons they have. If these results are true, I bet it would be even better in incomplete SCI. I'd love to hear Dr.Young's opinion, and that of other SCI scientists.
    Last edited by Nowhere Man; 06-16-2016 at 11:18 PM.

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