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Thread: SP Constant Clogging with proteus mirabilis

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  1. #1

    Unhappy SP Constant Clogging with proteus mirabilis

    I've had a supra pubic catheter for 4 years now and I would normally change it once a month but just within the last two months it clogs every 3-5 days with a white powdery sediment. I have always had sediment n a history of bladder stones but now it seems out of control all of a sudden.

    I've been to the uro n had a culture done. The doc found a bladder stone & my culture came back a < 100,000 cfu/ml proteus mirabilis. So he removed a stone n put me on antibiotics(kelphex or somthing like that). It worked till two days after the antibiotic was done. Then another clog. So I went back & he put me on 5 days two tablets of septra a day then 1/2 tab a day for a month.

    Does this seem ok? Also I've done ALOT of reading & I've heard alot of good things about Vetericyn. I was prescribed Renicide a while ago but never used it & it expired.. Is it similar, better, worse than Vetericyn? Has anyone overcome this uti? Sorry for rambling & Thanks ahead of time.

    PS this explains all the sediment n why my urine has an ammonia smell.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus_mirabilis
    Last edited by Padred123; 01-19-2012 at 10:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Are you sure that he got out all the stones...kidneys, ureters and bladder? Proteus is often associated with stones, and will cause the same infection to come back over and over as long as the stones remain, regardless of taking any antibotics.

    Have you tried daily routine Renacidin instillations through your catheter for the encrustations?

    (KLD)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI-Nurse View Post
    Are you sure that he got out all the stones...kidneys, ureters and bladder? Proteus is often associated with stones, and will cause the same infection to come back over and over as long as the stones remain, regardless of taking any antibotics.

    Have you tried daily routine Renacidin instillations through your catheter for the encrustations?

    (KLD)
    The Dr ordered a xray that was negative of stones. I haven't used the renacidin yet. I was prescribed it a long time ago but never used it and now its out of date.

    What has better results Renacidin or Vetericyn? Anyone used both? Also I've read Proteus thrives in alkaline environments. Should I try to lower my ph(more acidic)? If so.. Any tips?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Padred123 View Post
    The Dr ordered a xray that was negative of stones. I haven't used the renacidin yet. I was prescribed it a long time ago but never used it and now its out of date.

    What has better results Renacidin or Vetericyn? Anyone used both? Also I've read Proteus thrives in alkaline environments. Should I try to lower my ph(more acidic)? If so.. Any tips?
    I remember trying Renacidin years ago but I can't even remember what era of time or under what circumstances even though I am having the same problem you are. I just replied (with a long post about my story) to one of the more recent persons who is also having a problem with their catheter clogging.

    I read just a couple months ago however that Renacidin is not effective against stones or sediment that is made of calcium oxalate which, mind unfortunately were. I was going to try it until I read that from a reputable online source. I don't have that source at my fingertips at the moment but it burst my balloon on possibly using it. Although, you can only find it at certain homeopathic pharmacies that have to make it up. I have two of them nearby me and I called both of them. One says they are not making anymore. The other one said they are making it but they can't access it from where they order it from. In other words, it is becoming obsolete. So beware of that suggestion! You would have to find out what type of stones you are creating before considering and now FINDING Renacidin.
    Last edited by Brinda41; 01-05-2013 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Wrong information

  5. #5
    Senior Member zagam's Avatar
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    Very wise to qualify pH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Padred123 View Post
    Should I try to lower my ph(more acidic)?
    pH or p[H] is a measure of acidity and used to have a minus sign.

    At some point the minus sign got dropped (so now Log of reciprocal) and it got confused.

    The terms more acidic and less acidic are not at all confusing.

    Drink, eat cranberries, etc.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Quad Kings's Avatar
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    I seem to be having a similar problem all of a sudden, without history of stones (so far ... that I know of). I have indwelling silicone 5 cc balloon catheters. But am seeing a lot of gunky/powdery buildup in the connector piece between the catheter and leg bag tubing.

    It seems that these clogs started coming after I cut way back on my alcohol consumption (from 3-4 times a week to 1-2 times a month). This issue may literally drive me to drink.

    I posted a question in this forum a couple days ago looking for what I thought were called 'super slick' indwelling Foley catheters (the only response I got suggested hydrophilic/lofric caths, but best I can tell they are only made for intermittent cathing). Also, I don't have UTI problems ever (maybe once a year at most).

  7. #7
    Hi "Padred123,"
    Welcome to the Care Cure Community.

    How long were you on Keflex? You may not have been prescribed a long enough period of time for this drug for a neurogenic bladder. Typically, when I have had any antibiotics prescribed for urinary tract infections I have been directed to take them for 10-14 days, which is longer than usually prescribed for infections in the general population. In fact, I am wondering if your current prescription for Septra isn't setting you up for bacterial overgrowth.

    Renacidin and Vetericyn have different uses. Renacidin is used in the prevention and dissolution of calculi in the urinary tract. Vetericyn/Microcyn is a "proprietary formulation of oxy chlorine compounds based upon the Microcyn® Technology platform, Vetericyn Wound care is a one-step, pH-neutral and shelf-stable wound dressing that cleanses and debrides wounds, treats infections and speeds up the healing process." It is not an antibiotic. It does not treat calculi in the urinary tract. (See more at http://vetericyn.com/technology/faq.php)

    I have not used Renacidin and I cannot advise whether they can be used in combination. Personally, I have had excellent results in staying infection and colonization free for 20 months using Vetericyn bladder instillation. I have had a supra pubic catheter for just over 20 months. I am 29 years post injury and haven't had any calculi issues in that time (just not a stone/sediment maker, I guess). I would urge you to read and study all the threads and posts about Vetericyn to be able to make an informed decision about whether it is right for you. Here are a few of the most significant threads about Vetericyn.

    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...yn+open+letter
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...ericyn+summary

    If you try an internet search "acidifying urine," you will find many articles with information about food, beverage, and supplement choices.

    All the best,
    GJ

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by gjnl View Post
    Hi "Padred123,"
    Welcome to the Care Cure Community.

    How long were you on Keflex? You may not have been prescribed a long enough period of time for this drug for a neurogenic bladder. Typically, when I have had any antibiotics prescribed for urinary tract infections I have been directed to take them for 10-14 days, which is longer than usually prescribed for infections in the general population. In fact, I am wondering if your current prescription for Septra isn't setting you up for bacterial overgrowth.

    Renacidin and Vetericyn have different uses. Renacidin is used in the prevention and dissolution of calculi in the urinary tract. Vetericyn/Microcyn is a "proprietary formulation of oxy chlorine compounds based upon the Microcyn® Technology platform, Vetericyn Wound care is a one-step, pH-neutral and shelf-stable wound dressing that cleanses and debrides wounds, treats infections and speeds up the healing process." It is not an antibiotic. It does not treat calculi in the urinary tract. (See more at http://vetericyn.com/technology/faq.php)

    I have not used Renacidin and I cannot advise whether they can be used in combination. Personally, I have had excellent results in staying infection and colonization free for 20 months using Vetericyn bladder instillation. I have had a supra pubic catheter for just over 20 months. I am 29 years post injury and haven't had any calculi issues in that time (just not a stone/sediment maker, I guess). I would urge you to read and study all the threads and posts about Vetericyn to be able to make an informed decision about whether it is right for you. Here are a few of the most significant threads about Vetericyn.

    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...yn+open+letter
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...ericyn+summary

    If you try an internet search "acidifying urine," you will find many articles with information about food, beverage, and supplement choices.

    All the best,
    GJ
    Thanks for the info GJ! My Dr only had me on the Keflex for 5 days. I got off of it Dec 29. Then came New years eve.. I made the bad decision to drink Jack Daniels Honey two days in a row. My urine got dark and that night I had my first clog after finishing the Keflex.

    I changed my catheter and wrote it off to drinking liquor. I started drinking tons of water and 1 tbl spoon of cream of tarter a day. That really cleared my urine up but within 3 days I had another clog. I changed the catheter a couple more times after that. So I got sick of it and I went back to the Dr last Friday. Thats when he prescribed me the septra. I changed my cath again when I started the septra and got another clog on the 5th day of taking it.

    I flushed it out with distilled water really good which seemed to help. I also have been drinking tons of water and cream of tarter once a day. I'm feeling a little better now. I never used to flush my bladder but maybe it something that just needs done on a regular basis. I'm gonna try that and keep researching Renicidin Vs Vetericyn.

    As for PH I've been testing my urine and its been between 7 & 8. I'm gonna try to get it at least around 5 or 6 if I can. So it gives those bugs a harder time. My Dr gave me methenamine mandelate which may or may not help from what I've read. Also alot of vitamin C should lower the ph some. I found this website with alot of good info on urine PH. http://www.naturalhealthschool.com/pH-balance.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Quad Kings View Post
    I seem to be having a similar problem all of a sudden, without history of stones (so far ... that I know of). I have indwelling silicone 5 cc balloon catheters. But am seeing a lot of gunky/powdery buildup in the connector piece between the catheter and leg bag tubing.

    It seems that these clogs started coming after I cut way back on my alcohol consumption (from 3-4 times a week to 1-2 times a month). This issue may literally drive me to drink.

    I posted a question in this forum a couple days ago looking for what I thought were called 'super slick' indwelling Foley catheters (the only response I got suggested hydrophilic/lofric caths, but best I can tell they are only made for intermittent cathing). Also, I don't have UTI problems ever (maybe once a year at most).
    Maybe light beer is the cure all lol! I found these Silver caths I was planning to try out too. http://www.allegromedical.com/cathet...e-p172468.html



    Boy! With all that something should work lol! Other than that thanks so far and I will keep you all posted on my discoveries.
    Last edited by Padred123; 01-20-2012 at 04:54 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Padred123 View Post
    Thanks for the info GJ! My Dr only had me on the Keflex for 5 days. I got off of it Dec 29.
    There's at least part of the problem -- your doctor is treating you as though you're an AB, not someone with a neurogenic bladder. For those of us with SCI/D, every symptomatic UTI should be treated as ''complex'', which means 10-14 days of antibiotics rather than the 5-7 day course of treatment recommended for ''simple'' UTIs.

    Do yourself a favor and download this booklet about bladder management and give it to your doctor.
    It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.

    ~Julius Caesar


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by thehipcrip View Post
    There's at least part of the problem -- your doctor is treating you as though you're an AB, not someone with a neurogenic bladder. For those of us with SCI/D, every symptomatic UTI should be treated as ''complex'', which means 10-14 days of antibiotics rather than the 5-7 day course of treatment recommended for ''simple'' UTIs.

    Do yourself a favor and download this booklet about bladder management and give it to your doctor.
    Thanks. I will print it out. I'm a lil afraid I might insult him but at this point who cares. I might actually get a second opinion. I need to do something because everything I'm doing isn't working. I've changed about 5 catheters since my last post. This is completely discouraging. I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. I've read so much and the more I read the more hopeless it seems. According to the studies I've read proteus mirabilis is near impossible to get rid of.

    Although there is some promise of fighting it off by filling the catheter balloon with triclosan but I'm still not sure of how many studies there has been. Drinking alot of water and lemon/lime drinks(which I do) is supposed to slow growth a little bit. I've started my own test by using 100% silicone catheters and filling the balloon with diluted vinegar since the encrustations can only grow in a ph 7 or greater but we'll see..

    Also, I tried the silver cath but it only lasted two days then clogged like the rest of them(what a waste of $15) and I haven't ordered the vetericyn but I will very soon.

    Heres some more good reading on proteus mirabilis.

    Last edited by Padred123; 01-29-2012 at 09:26 PM.

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