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Thread: SP Constant Clogging with proteus mirabilis

  1. #1

    Unhappy SP Constant Clogging with proteus mirabilis

    I've had a supra pubic catheter for 4 years now and I would normally change it once a month but just within the last two months it clogs every 3-5 days with a white powdery sediment. I have always had sediment n a history of bladder stones but now it seems out of control all of a sudden.

    I've been to the uro n had a culture done. The doc found a bladder stone & my culture came back a < 100,000 cfu/ml proteus mirabilis. So he removed a stone n put me on antibiotics(kelphex or somthing like that). It worked till two days after the antibiotic was done. Then another clog. So I went back & he put me on 5 days two tablets of septra a day then 1/2 tab a day for a month.

    Does this seem ok? Also I've done ALOT of reading & I've heard alot of good things about Vetericyn. I was prescribed Renicide a while ago but never used it & it expired.. Is it similar, better, worse than Vetericyn? Has anyone overcome this uti? Sorry for rambling & Thanks ahead of time.

    PS this explains all the sediment n why my urine has an ammonia smell.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus_mirabilis
    Last edited by Padred123; 01-19-2012 at 10:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Are you sure that he got out all the stones...kidneys, ureters and bladder? Proteus is often associated with stones, and will cause the same infection to come back over and over as long as the stones remain, regardless of taking any antibotics.

    Have you tried daily routine Renacidin instillations through your catheter for the encrustations?

    (KLD)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI-Nurse View Post
    Are you sure that he got out all the stones...kidneys, ureters and bladder? Proteus is often associated with stones, and will cause the same infection to come back over and over as long as the stones remain, regardless of taking any antibotics.

    Have you tried daily routine Renacidin instillations through your catheter for the encrustations?

    (KLD)
    The Dr ordered a xray that was negative of stones. I haven't used the renacidin yet. I was prescribed it a long time ago but never used it and now its out of date.

    What has better results Renacidin or Vetericyn? Anyone used both? Also I've read Proteus thrives in alkaline environments. Should I try to lower my ph(more acidic)? If so.. Any tips?

  4. #4
    Junior Member Quad Kings's Avatar
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    I seem to be having a similar problem all of a sudden, without history of stones (so far ... that I know of). I have indwelling silicone 5 cc balloon catheters. But am seeing a lot of gunky/powdery buildup in the connector piece between the catheter and leg bag tubing.

    It seems that these clogs started coming after I cut way back on my alcohol consumption (from 3-4 times a week to 1-2 times a month). This issue may literally drive me to drink.

    I posted a question in this forum a couple days ago looking for what I thought were called 'super slick' indwelling Foley catheters (the only response I got suggested hydrophilic/lofric caths, but best I can tell they are only made for intermittent cathing). Also, I don't have UTI problems ever (maybe once a year at most).

  5. #5
    Hi "Padred123,"
    Welcome to the Care Cure Community.

    How long were you on Keflex? You may not have been prescribed a long enough period of time for this drug for a neurogenic bladder. Typically, when I have had any antibiotics prescribed for urinary tract infections I have been directed to take them for 10-14 days, which is longer than usually prescribed for infections in the general population. In fact, I am wondering if your current prescription for Septra isn't setting you up for bacterial overgrowth.

    Renacidin and Vetericyn have different uses. Renacidin is used in the prevention and dissolution of calculi in the urinary tract. Vetericyn/Microcyn is a "proprietary formulation of oxy chlorine compounds based upon the Microcyn® Technology platform, Vetericyn Wound care is a one-step, pH-neutral and shelf-stable wound dressing that cleanses and debrides wounds, treats infections and speeds up the healing process." It is not an antibiotic. It does not treat calculi in the urinary tract. (See more at http://vetericyn.com/technology/faq.php)

    I have not used Renacidin and I cannot advise whether they can be used in combination. Personally, I have had excellent results in staying infection and colonization free for 20 months using Vetericyn bladder instillation. I have had a supra pubic catheter for just over 20 months. I am 29 years post injury and haven't had any calculi issues in that time (just not a stone/sediment maker, I guess). I would urge you to read and study all the threads and posts about Vetericyn to be able to make an informed decision about whether it is right for you. Here are a few of the most significant threads about Vetericyn.

    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...yn+open+letter
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...ericyn+summary

    If you try an internet search "acidifying urine," you will find many articles with information about food, beverage, and supplement choices.

    All the best,
    GJ

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gjnl View Post
    Hi "Padred123,"
    Welcome to the Care Cure Community.

    How long were you on Keflex? You may not have been prescribed a long enough period of time for this drug for a neurogenic bladder. Typically, when I have had any antibiotics prescribed for urinary tract infections I have been directed to take them for 10-14 days, which is longer than usually prescribed for infections in the general population. In fact, I am wondering if your current prescription for Septra isn't setting you up for bacterial overgrowth.

    Renacidin and Vetericyn have different uses. Renacidin is used in the prevention and dissolution of calculi in the urinary tract. Vetericyn/Microcyn is a "proprietary formulation of oxy chlorine compounds based upon the Microcyn® Technology platform, Vetericyn Wound care is a one-step, pH-neutral and shelf-stable wound dressing that cleanses and debrides wounds, treats infections and speeds up the healing process." It is not an antibiotic. It does not treat calculi in the urinary tract. (See more at http://vetericyn.com/technology/faq.php)

    I have not used Renacidin and I cannot advise whether they can be used in combination. Personally, I have had excellent results in staying infection and colonization free for 20 months using Vetericyn bladder instillation. I have had a supra pubic catheter for just over 20 months. I am 29 years post injury and haven't had any calculi issues in that time (just not a stone/sediment maker, I guess). I would urge you to read and study all the threads and posts about Vetericyn to be able to make an informed decision about whether it is right for you. Here are a few of the most significant threads about Vetericyn.

    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...yn+open+letter
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...wash+vetericyn
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthr...ericyn+summary

    If you try an internet search "acidifying urine," you will find many articles with information about food, beverage, and supplement choices.

    All the best,
    GJ
    Thanks for the info GJ! My Dr only had me on the Keflex for 5 days. I got off of it Dec 29. Then came New years eve.. I made the bad decision to drink Jack Daniels Honey two days in a row. My urine got dark and that night I had my first clog after finishing the Keflex.

    I changed my catheter and wrote it off to drinking liquor. I started drinking tons of water and 1 tbl spoon of cream of tarter a day. That really cleared my urine up but within 3 days I had another clog. I changed the catheter a couple more times after that. So I got sick of it and I went back to the Dr last Friday. Thats when he prescribed me the septra. I changed my cath again when I started the septra and got another clog on the 5th day of taking it.

    I flushed it out with distilled water really good which seemed to help. I also have been drinking tons of water and cream of tarter once a day. I'm feeling a little better now. I never used to flush my bladder but maybe it something that just needs done on a regular basis. I'm gonna try that and keep researching Renicidin Vs Vetericyn.

    As for PH I've been testing my urine and its been between 7 & 8. I'm gonna try to get it at least around 5 or 6 if I can. So it gives those bugs a harder time. My Dr gave me methenamine mandelate which may or may not help from what I've read. Also alot of vitamin C should lower the ph some. I found this website with alot of good info on urine PH. http://www.naturalhealthschool.com/pH-balance.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Quad Kings View Post
    I seem to be having a similar problem all of a sudden, without history of stones (so far ... that I know of). I have indwelling silicone 5 cc balloon catheters. But am seeing a lot of gunky/powdery buildup in the connector piece between the catheter and leg bag tubing.

    It seems that these clogs started coming after I cut way back on my alcohol consumption (from 3-4 times a week to 1-2 times a month). This issue may literally drive me to drink.

    I posted a question in this forum a couple days ago looking for what I thought were called 'super slick' indwelling Foley catheters (the only response I got suggested hydrophilic/lofric caths, but best I can tell they are only made for intermittent cathing). Also, I don't have UTI problems ever (maybe once a year at most).
    Maybe light beer is the cure all lol! I found these Silver caths I was planning to try out too. http://www.allegromedical.com/cathet...e-p172468.html



    Boy! With all that something should work lol! Other than that thanks so far and I will keep you all posted on my discoveries.
    Last edited by Padred123; 01-20-2012 at 04:54 PM.

  7. #7
    Stay away from latex and switch to silicone catheter and bags. Change the bag q3 days and rinse with vinegar and hang to drip dry. Ask the doc for an order to irrigate the bladder with sterile water and a little baking soda. Change all meds to liquid and if not possible crush meds and add warm water and make sure fully dissolved before taking. Powder in is powder out. Make sure you are not taking too much tylenol/powdery substance this adds to a lot of stone issues.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Quad Kings's Avatar
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    "Powder in, powder out" makes the most sense to me. I've been taking lots of BCAA to help heal a tissue wound.

    It seems crazy to me that we need a doctor's order/prescription to get sterile saline (for irrigation).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by QuadNurse View Post
    Stay away from latex and switch to silicone catheter and bags. Change the bag q3 days and rinse with vinegar and hang to drip dry. Ask the doc for an order to irrigate the bladder with sterile water and a little baking soda. Change all meds to liquid and if not possible crush meds and add warm water and make sure fully dissolved before taking. Powder in is powder out. Make sure you are not taking too much tylenol/powdery substance this adds to a lot of stone issues.
    Latex catheters are always a bad idea for long term use. At least use silastic or teflon coated if you must use them. Not everyone likes silcone.

    There is no evidence that vinegar is a good disinfection agent...in fact, a study I participated in back in the 1980s found that vinegar actually promotes the grown of pseudomonas bacteria. The solution recommend for cleaning and disinfecting catheter bags is 10% bleach. Renacidin instillations (not irrigation) will help dissolve encrustations.

    Irrigation with baking soda, which would make the bladder more alkaline, not acidic, also has no scientific basis and would not be recommended in this circumstance.

    There is no scientific basis for crushing all meds or taking in a liquid form only as having any bearing on their efficacy or the formation of sediment. Many meds should NOT be crushed (timed release capsules or enteric coated tablets, for example).

    Early forming stones may not show up in a regular Xray, as they are not fully calcified. A CT or ultrasound may find these early formers, which can still be quite large.

    (KLD)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Padred123 View Post
    Thanks for the info GJ! My Dr only had me on the Keflex for 5 days. I got off of it Dec 29.
    There's at least part of the problem -- your doctor is treating you as though you're an AB, not someone with a neurogenic bladder. For those of us with SCI/D, every symptomatic UTI should be treated as ''complex'', which means 10-14 days of antibiotics rather than the 5-7 day course of treatment recommended for ''simple'' UTIs.

    Do yourself a favor and download this booklet about bladder management and give it to your doctor.
    It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.

    ~Julius Caesar


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