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Thread: Pics/remarks of Icon?

  1. #191
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    that`s stupid, and why they don`t do it for you?

    That is like if you buy a car, bike, etc and if you want a colour you have to painted yourself, they are the manufacturer, so they have to give the paint if you want because you are who pay.
    Imaginate that i`m going to order an Icon for example, i will go for black, but i would like the front frame in white and i don`t want my footrest painted, i don`t see a big problem for manufacturer to do that, but could be for the customer to do it theirself.

    But almost all manufacturers give a bunch of colours where to choise with no extra cost, so why no them?

    Jeff has explained why, before. Their business model is different than other manufacturers. They do production runs in large batches, not made to order. They decided, for cost reasons, to do the first runs in black only, but suggested colors might evolve, down the road. TiLite has been in business for years and only just recently started offering their titanium chairs in more than one color. It's not so different.
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  2. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    that`s stupid, and why they don`t do it for you?

    That is like if you buy a car, bike, etc and if you want a colour you have to painted yourself, they are the manufacturer, so they have to give the paint if you want because you are who pay.
    Imaginate that i`m going to order an Icon for example, i will go for black, but i would like the front frame in white and i don`t want my footrest painted, i don`t see a big problem for manufacturer to do that, but could be for the customer to do it theirself.

    But almost all manufacturers give a bunch of colours where to choise with no extra cost, so why no them?
    It isn't a car or a bike, it is a piece of medical equipment that (for most people) isn't optional. On the list of things a new company should spend their time on, candy apple red frame colors should be dead last.

  3. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
    Jeff has explained why, before. Their business model is different than other manufacturers. They do production runs in large batches, not made to order. They decided, for cost reasons, to do the first runs in black only, but suggested colors might evolve, down the road. .
    ok, i understand that, what i don`t understand is if i`ve got the money and i want a white Icon can`t get it from the manufacturer.
    Sure Jeff know where to get podwer coating paint better than almost all of us, so if he only offer black at first for a economic reason, he could give colours like an option with adding cost, don`t you think? this way everybody happy

  4. #194
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    ok, i understand that, what i don`t understand is if i`ve got the money and i want a white Icon can`t get it from the manufacturer.
    Sure Jeff know where to get podwer coating paint better than almost all of us, so if he only offer black at first for a economic reason, he could give colours like an option with adding cost, don`t you think? this way everybody happy

    Yeah, down the road, once they get up and running and money starts rolling in and chairs start rolling out, and they become successful and colors don't become an option, I think that will negatively effect sales. Colors are definitely something that the a lot of the potential user base wants to have as as option.
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  5. #195
    Senior Member ~Lin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    ok, i understand that, what i don`t understand is if i`ve got the money and i want a white Icon can`t get it from the manufacturer.
    Sure Jeff know where to get podwer coating paint better than almost all of us, so if he only offer black at first for a economic reason, he could give colours like an option with adding cost, don`t you think? this way everybody happy
    So basically what you want is to pay more for less options?

    Jeff stated he's trying to change the industry a bit. You can go anywhere that offers powdercoating or painting right now and get whatever custom job you want for the lowest local price. But that won't make you happy, paying more for less colors* or less custom job direct from the manufacturer will?

    *because no matter how many colors icon offers a business that specifically does this is going to have more colors to choose from and options for how to use them like your black and white example above.
    Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

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  6. #196
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    No, no, he's saying he is willing to pay a little more for the option of color.


    Quote Originally Posted by ~Lin View Post
    So basically what you want is to pay more for less options?

    Jeff stated he's trying to change the industry a bit. You can go anywhere that offers powdercoating or painting right now and get whatever custom job you want for the lowest local price. But that won't make you happy, paying more for less colors* or less custom job direct from the manufacturer will?

    *because no matter how many colors icon offers a business that specifically does this is going to have more colors to choose from and options for how to use them like your black and white example above.
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  7. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by -scott- View Post
    Tell ya what, you find a $1 lightweight "plug" with the same dimensions, hardware mounts, and load capacity as an air shock, and I'll test it. Heck, I'll buy 10 & give 9 away for that price.

    The A1 frame was strategically designed for suspension. How many full-suspension mountain bikes do you see with "plugs" for riders who want to make them hardtails? Zero.
    I trust that Jeff and Co. designed the suspension pivot points correctly, so there is zero torque on the shock and it's attachment points. A 20mm diameter 7005 rod the same length as the shock would work. If someone wants a hardtail bike, they buy a hardtail frame. If Icon made a completely shock-free version, that's what I would get, but they don't, so this is the only alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    The modularity of the Icon is a benefit here, and was part of our strategy in the concept stage of the Icon - we had a lot of friends who had glass ceilings on the amount of money they could spend, and we quickly saw the mistake we had made last time around with an "all in" price.
    Without violating any laws or statutes, an end-user can buy the base model of the Icon, using whatever funding/allowable they have to pay for it.
    They can then (after delivery) use whatever other means they may have available to them to upgrade parts to get the top of the line version of the chair (carbon seat, sideguards, etc). This helps the end-user get the equipment they need, and also helps get the DME out of a potentially awkward legal grey zone.
    No other manufacturer has a design that allows this to happen - eg. if you buy the Invacare A4, you can never upgrade it to the level of a T7A - it's just not possible, same as if you buy an Aero Z - you just can't upgrade to a ZRA2.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    Zapp - if you can design, engineer, test, validate, do any necessary regulatory filings, create tooling, and manufacture "different components" that have the "same design" yet somehow reduce the cost of the chair significantly, I'll buy them from you, and nominate you for an award!
    I must have misunderstood your post on being able to upgrade- I thought you meant that you could get cheaper parts, i.e. laminate seat pan vs carbon fiber, and upgrade later. The laminate is a "different component with the same design" as the carbon fiber. A piece of 7005 aluminum of the same length as the Fox shock would be analogous.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    Like I said, we're trying to keep the price as low as we can, and with some of the parts, it's better for the end-user to go to a bike shop and reap the benefits that come with enormous volumes of parts being made (there are literally 10,000 TIMES more bikes made than wheelchairs every year) - that was my comment on the clamps - we're not trying to quibble about prices, nor are we cutting any corners on parts - our tolerances are tight, our finish quality is second to none, and we have a ton of real engineering in this thing.
    So why not give me the option to get the chair without a shock and get one from a bike store my self?
    I really did not mean for this to become a big discussion...

  8. #198
    Senior Member ~Lin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
    No, no, he's saying he is willing to pay a little more for the option of color.
    And he can, right now. But that's not good enough he said, he won't be happy unless it's done by the manufacturer. Who will probably not be able to do a custom job like he suggested earlier. Icon isn't about making each chair completely custom. For that stick with oracing. Icon is about making what's adjustable so one size really does fit all.

    zapp, I think you missed it but icon has another lower chair that just hasn't been released yet. It will be a k5 chair, so likely it's without shock like you are asking for. So why change the current chair, when they already have something in the works.
    Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

    I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

  9. #199
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Lin View Post
    And he can, right now. But that's not good enough he said, he won't be happy unless it's done by the manufacturer. Who will probably not be able to do a custom job like he suggested earlier. Icon isn't about making each chair completely custom. For that stick with oracing. Icon is about making what's adjustable so one size really does fit all.

    Oh...yes, I see the distinction you are making. Fair enough. Sorry for misunderstanding you. Thanks for the clarification.
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  10. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
    No, no, he's saying he is willing to pay a little more for the option of color.
    yes, that`s what i`m trying to say.

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