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Thread: Pics/remarks of Icon?

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    @Toto - I think the point is that a chair that fits (and can be re-configured to fit no matter what the situation) can in fact create more independence, and a chair that doesn't fit can limit opportunity.

    When I go to Europe, or up to my cabin (where there are narrow doorways), I put the camber at zero, and bring the wheel gap down to where it just about rubs.

    If it was set at six degrees, I couldn't get into my cabin, and a lot of places in Europe would be inaccessible (my independence would be reduced).

    When I go to my brother's house, and I know that his kids are going to jump on my lap and hug me and want me to go outside to play with them, I set it at six degrees - if it was set at zero, they'd knock me over, and I would have a hard time playing outside with them. (My opportunity to play with my nephews and my enjoyment of my life would be reduced)

    For everyday, I set my camber at two degrees, and my wheel-gap at around 3/4", which gives me a nice in-between setting that suits my lifestyle and the built environment I mostly find myself in.

    My independence and the things that are accessible to me are improved and increased by the adjustability of my chair - elements that are simply not available in a lot of other products on the market today.

    I'm not trying to say that the Icon is the best chair for everybody - some people will always want a minimalist chair that can't be adjusted or changed, and chairs like Oracing or TiLite are very well made, and serve a market niche very well, no question about that.

    We're trying to provide a chair that can be quickly reconfigured to adapt to changing needs, whether they be on a personal level or due to environmental changes.

    You are not average - your chair fits, and fits well. But thousands of people are sitting in chairs right now that are a number of inches too wide, a number of inches too tall, or short, or long.

    Think about that - this is not an exaggeration.

    125,000 people in North America own and use premium wheelchairs. If even 1 percent are in chairs that limit their independence because of the way they fit, that is thousands of people who are limited in the way they can live.

    This is unacceptable, unnecessary, and heart-breaking.

    energy we have into coming up with a solution to this problem.

    Icon is the best we can do to address it. We're going to make mistakes, and we're going to fix them. We're going to ask other people who use chairs for advice, and we're going to listen to them. We're going to try to change things a little bit at a time, and try to make sure that end-users, clinicians, and dealers all benefit from our attempts.

    Sorry if this is an over-the-top reaction to an off the cuff remark that you made, maybe chalk it up to post-holiday emotions running high. I know you're a nice guy, and you believe that custom chairs are the way to go, and that you really do mean well.


    We saw that problem, and are trying to solve it (little by little), and the benefit to the end-user is not an accident - it's by design. The ability to adjust and reconfigure the Icon is going to create an after-market of used chairs (not immediately, but over time), because someone trying to sell a used Icon won't have to find a body-double. What a waste to have two or three old chairs sitting in a garage or on a shelf, that can't be re-sold to someone who can't afford a brand new one (or donated to someone who really needs it).

    Think of the benefit of being able to recoup some of the cost of a new chair by selling the old one, or the feeling of donating a used chair to someone and playing a role in increasing their independence and opportunity in life.

    Icon. Fits.
    My God! you almost convince me to buy you one

    I always have said the Icon is an excellent concept of chair, different thing is the desing, and we need time to see if it has good durability.
    I don`t like the desing and some end finish, but that is not important, that`s just my personal taste and opinion, but i really like the concept.

    Luckily i know how to built a chair to fit perfect to me and i don`t need any adjustaments, well maybe that thing you have said about camber
    anyway my width and 2º camber never have give me problems to get into a place.

    But yes, you are right.

  2. #92
    kumbaya


  3. #93
    Jeff’s post makes yet another powerful statement for the many benefits of the concept behind the Icon. And he also acknowledges that it won’t be the perfect answer for everyone – no wheelchair ever will (obviously).

    Since many of the Icon threads touch on the vital importance of choosing the wheelchair that best suits the user’s needs, I would like to include my own remarks about why I believe that I, and perhaps others with a similar SCI profile (T4 complete) might not find the Icon to be their best choice.

    I’m not presently in the market to buy a new chair, as regulars of this forum well know. (I have two chairs that already suit my needs perfectly.) If I were in the market, though, I would NOT be able to consider an Icon in my search despite its abundance of innovative features. This is not a criticism of the Icon, which I believe stands a great likelihood – and deservingly so – of capturing much of the market. (And I have done my small part in helping introduce Jeff to clinicians and vendors to get the word out.)

    If I were selling wheelchairs, as a caveat, I would want my customers to be aware of the potential shortcomings of the open wheelchair design, one that does not have the traditional front end frame, at least from the perspective of this user who has ZERO trunk control.

    My reluctance to this design category stems from my reliance on the support that the front frame provides me. As I’ve stated in earlier posts, I live on the grab points of the frame tubing extending out in front of the seat pan. Throughout the day I am reaching for the frame for an endless array of mundane, but cumulative, activities including: bending forward, pushing up, getting undressed, body stretching, and most important of all, transfers. When transferring, almost exclusively, I am lifting up to surfaces that are elevated above my seat height. Using lower grab points, as illustrated in Jeff’s videos, would provide me no advantage whatsoever. (For seat-to-floor or seat-to-handcycle transfers, yes, having lower grab points would be a plus.)

    If I had any semblance of trunk control and stability, having a front frame available for support (a crutch, if you will) might be inconsequential to my daily functioning. Take it away from me, however, and it would be like removing a body part. I would be forfeiting a vital structural support, a feature that, while secondary to the primary purpose of a wheelchair – mobility – is vital all the same.

    For users with greater trunk support, or those for whom the need for wheelchair adjustability is of paramount importance, the Icon may well be the perfect ticket. For users like myself, though, open frame design chairs are likely to sacrifice independence rather than enhance it.

    Icon may in the future offer transfer handles as an add-on that will mount to the frame, and maybe that will remedy this “deficiency," and if you don't mind adding additional components and weight to your chair, it might be a solution.
    Last edited by stephen212; 01-03-2012 at 10:33 PM.

  4. #94
    Senior Member BriRi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    My God! you almost convince me to buy you one

    I always have said the Icon is an excellent concept of chair, different thing is the desing, and we need time to see if it has good durability.
    I don`t like the desing and some end finish, but that is not important, that`s just my personal taste and opinion, but i really like the concept.

    Luckily i know how to built a chair to fit perfect to me and i don`t need any adjustaments, well maybe that thing you have said about camber
    anyway my width and 2º camber never have give me problems to get into a place.

    But yes, you are right.
    But you can't always change your environment to fit you!!! I'm taller than average so in order to be able to fit under tables/counters etc., I've chosen to configure my chair with a lower than optimal front seat height. In order to allow my chair to fit in various vehicles that I own I've gone with a shorter than optimal overall frame length and a folding frame (Quickie GTX). Width is also frequently an issue, particularly when traveling and the ability to change camber can be the difference between access or not (think front door at Secret Stash in Crested Butte.). With the ICON I can configure the chair differently to allow the same access, while enjoying a "closer to perfect" fit in my chair at the same time.

    I also don't like to have to travel with more gear than necessary and plan on using my ICON for more than one purpose. I have never been in a marathon or other race but my wife runs at events all over the country. I don't want the hassle of transporting a second chair to these events so I'm gonna use my ICON with a FreeWheel and a second set of wheels/rims. I won't break any records but should be able to enjoy the 5k companion runs at these events. Being able to "share" these events with my wife is gonna be great.

    After 30+ years I am quite comfortable with the sacrifice of the "perfect fit wheelchair" in order to allow me to enjoy all of my true passions in life. No way am I going to give up driving sports cars or trucks, but when I get where I'm going I gotta have a chair that can function for everything else I want to do. There is no perfect chair, but I think the ICON is gonna be closer than anything I've had to date.

    ICON FITS!!! (Hopefully)

  5. #95
    After reading this thread, I'm really looking forward to seeing one. Going to be at the Abilities expo in So Cal March 30?

  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy1 View Post
    After reading this thread, I'm really looking forward to seeing one. Going to be at the Abilities expo in So Cal March 30?
    I bet your just saying that because I specifically identified you as the exception instead of the rule when it comes to suppliers who dedicate themselves to providing the best equipment for their end users.

    Seriously though, I'd be interested in hearing your take on our TexasWheelz' earlier posts in this thread about many DME's.


  7. #97
    @jakeyboy1 - Yes, we'll be at Abilities, and I'll also be in San Diego on January 12 if you any availability - I'll likely be in/around SoCal until the 15th.

    I don't normally do this with strangers, but because SCI_OTR speaks so highly about you........send me a message at jeff@iconwheelchairs.com if you'd like an advance screening.

    @Stephen212 - your comments are good ones, but I think it has more to do with how you sit, and habits in terms of repositioning and using the frame as a support, moreso than your level of injury.

    I say this because Christian is a higher injury level than you, and we have a lot of C-level folks using the chair. You sit really "flat" - with your thighs parallel or even on a negative (sloping down from your hips), which exaggerates your lack of trunk control (yes, I was doing an on the sly seating eval on you a few weeks ago in NYC).

    (This is in no way an attempt to say that the Icon is "for" you - just a comment that your level of injury might not be the "reason" it wouldn't work for you)

    It's interesting to see the comments about how the adjustability was what got people through the door, but the suspension was what turned out to be the biggest benefit.

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    @Stephen212 - your comments are good ones, but I think it has more to do with how you sit, and habits in terms of repositioning and using the frame as a support, moreso than your level of injury.

    I say this because Christian is a higher injury level than you, and we have a lot of C-level folks using the chair. You sit really "flat" - with your thighs parallel or even on a negative (sloping down from your hips), which exaggerates your lack of trunk control (yes, I was doing an on the sly seating eval on you a few weeks ago in NYC).

    (This is in no way an attempt to say that the Icon is "for" you - just a comment that your level of injury might not be the "reason" it wouldn't work for you)
    Are you sure about that? My injury level is T4 (nipple line). I thought you told me that Christians's injury was T12ish, maybe lower. If he's a higher injury level than me, then super major props to him. His chair skills, as evidenced by the old CripCollege videos, are at the upper level and I don't see rock climbing anywhere in my future or as flat a stomach, which is even cooler.

    BTW: My seat dump is 3" (19" FSH; 16" RSH), which is fairly typical, I think, for my level. My trunk control is neurologically zilch, but my sitting balance is quite stable.

    Last edited by stephen212; 01-04-2012 at 08:58 AM.

  9. #99
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen212 View Post
    Are you sure about that? My injury level is T4 (nipple line). I thought you told me that Christians's injury was T12ish, maybe lower. If he's a higher injury level than me, then super major props to him. His chair skills, as evidenced by the old CripCollege videos, are at the upper level and I don't see rock climbing anywhere in my future or as flat a stomach, which is even cooler.

    BTW: My seat dump is 3" (19" FSH; 16" RSH), which is fairly typical, I think, for my level.



    Yeah, if Xian is T3 or higher he is THE MAN!!!

    Thinking out loud, you've got a lot more meat on your butt and legs than, say, me for example. This might be why your legs still sit somewhat level, even with 3" of dump? Your booty lifts you up some?

    Xfer handles on my Marvel get used all the time. Not for xfer ing but for leaning, reaching, etc. I can also use the tops of my knees for those things, often, but not always. (Thing thing would endo in a heart beat if I xferd with them!)
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  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by stephen212 View Post
    Are you sure about that? My injury level is T4 (nipple line). I thought you told me that Christians's injury was T12ish, maybe lower. If he's a higher injury level than me, then super major props to him. His chair skills, as evidenced by the old CripCollege videos, are at the upper level and I don't see rock climbing anywhere in my future or as flat a stomach, which is even cooler.

    BTW: My seat dump is 3" (19" FSH; 16" RSH), which is fairly typical, I think, for my level. My trunk control is neurologically zilch, but my sitting balance is quite stable.

    I'm also a T4 complete, have the same FSH, RSH as you and can honestly say I haven't had the need for the front frame. To reach something on the floor in front of me I either rest my other arm on my legs, grab the front of the seat pan or grab the front end. With 3" dump I'm tucked in enough and don't have to worry about falling forward.

    Jeff's right about his level of injury comment.

    I hear ya about the flat stomach

    The only way you'll know if the Icon will work for you is to try one out.

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