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Thread: A fervent wish for the coming year

  1. #71
    Senior Member dogger's Avatar
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    DA

    quote ''dogger...i've answered that question 1 billion times. many who have nothing to say always back out with that question. now go search the forum for my answer or rub some chicken grease all over your body and dive into a dingo den. '' unquote .

    i haven't been a member of this forum very long but would have thought if you have answered that question 1 billion times i would have seen it once or twice . a search of the forum turned up nothing . this probably reflects on my lack of ability on a computer , or could it be that you are doing nothing constructive ? humour me DA , if you have answered this question 1 billion times you should have it down pat by now and have no trouble posting an answer one more time please.

    from my knowledge of dingo's habits i can't see what diving in one of their dens would achieve ?

    dogger

    every day i wake up is a good one .

  2. #72
    cjo,

    Perhaps I misunderstood you but I don't think so. You were asking me if an individual wanted to be treated with something, would be willing to pay for it, will find the cells, and would be willing to sign a disclaimer, would I be willing to treat that person. I said no.

    When I said the above, I thought that you knew that I am involved in a number of clinical trials of spinal cord injury therapies. But I guess you have no reason to know that history. In the early 1980's, when everybody said that high-dose methylprednisolone would kill patients, I gave it to 30 consecutive patients with spinal cord injury to do the first clinical trial with that treatment. I have strongly supported most of the major clinical trials of spinal cord injury therapies. This includes the GM1 trial, the tirilazad mesylate trial, the 4-AP trial, the activated macrophage trial, and the OEG trials. By the way, Dr. Huang trained in my laboratory.

    It is true that I was skeptical about certain treatments because I did not think that the treatments were ready for clinical trial; this included the porcine fetal stem cell transplants, the Cedars Sinai adult brain stem cell transplants, the peripheral nerve grafting by Giorgio Brunelli, the CM101 therapy from Vanderbilt, or implantation of the NGF-secreting fibroblasts into the spinal cord. I did not think that risk of these therapies would be worth the potential benefits for the people in the trial.

    Finally, I don't believe in trying therapies just for the sake of trying them. There is real harm in just trying a therapy. A poorly designed trial that shows negative results or kills a patient, will murder a therapy quicker than you can say "but... it worked and is safe in other trials". It doesn't take much negative results for the entire scientific and clinical community, as well as the spinal cord injury community, to come down hard on a treatment. And, even when the results are positive, therapies are sometimes considered failures when they do not meet expectation.

    Wise.

  3. #73
    Senior Member DA's Avatar
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    from my knowledge of dingo's habits i can't see what diving in one of their dens would achieve ?


    ahhhh, now we getting somewhere. just like researchers in the usa sitting around wondering what if? what would be achieve?

    my answer is the same to you and them....TRY IT, your questions will be answered.

  4. #74
    Senior Member dogger's Avatar
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    DA , we are getting nowhere ,

    apart from you once again dodging my original question . maybe that makes you very similar to researchers in the U.S.A. . a dingo den is empty at this time of year . i still don't know if you are doing anything constructive in advancing your views , but i do know for sure that you are a master of not providing an answer for a perfectly straight forward question , very much like your view of researchers not providing the answer to curing SCI.

    dogger

    every day i wake up is a good one .

  5. #75
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    Wise,
    I do know of your previous work with clinical trials. Why? because I care about finding a cure and the work you have done. I read articles of your work with methylprednisolone long before I found this forum. I did not know that Dr. Huang trained in your labratory. Does it get to you a little bit that he's helping chronics already and you're not? Just a tinge of jealousy? No, nothing?

    What circumstances would you need to perform an OEG trial that was well structured? I know funding and an ethical source of cells are a must, but what else? Do you believe strongly enough in OEG treatments to try to bring a trial to the U.S.?

    I feel that an OEG trial would be way past the stage of "trying something just to try it." Isn't there at least a tiny part of you that wants to give it a shot now? Sometimes you can double down on a thirteen when the dealer has a face card showing and win, but you're sitting on an eleven and the dealer's got a six showing. I'm sorry for the digression and I'm pretty sure that a gambling analogy will accomplish nothing. It just pains me to know that chronics are being helped now IN OTHER COUNTRIES. Good for them, but I'm selfish and I'd like some of that. Dr. Huang trained in your labrotory and you've seen first hand some of his results, yet I sense some skepticism from you concerning his work. I could be wrong...

    After all of my arguments, I guess I just want to know what we can do to get effective treatments SOON? There has to be something besides leaving the country...

  6. #76
    Senior Member DA's Avatar
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    no...you are ruining this convo with your love of bickering.
    the subject is not me, its usa attitudes toward research. if they can't preform, get out the way. go slow down cloning babies research. the sci research community may have started out with good intention, but it is turning into a recliner chair field. no pressure from the paralyzed, "the establishment" still believe any breakthrough is 30 years away, and "the book" provides an guide to slow research.

  7. #77
    cjo, I am proud of Dr. Huang. Many of the people that I trained have run or are running clinical trials, or doing spinal cord injury research. That is what I do. Wise.

  8. #78
    Is it important that the human trials are done in the US? We want treatments that ultimately repair enough of the spinal cord damage to return function.
    Surely if this were done in China or Portugal, the US would make the treatment available to its citizens.

  9. #79
    Senior Member dogger's Avatar
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    DA.

    i hate bickering . the main reason i asked you the question on what you are doing to try to correct your views of what is wrong with the parameters currently placed on research regarding clinical trials etc. was that i was trying to decide whether you were trying to fix what you perceive is wrong with the research process in the U.S.A. or simply mouthing off . unfortunately from my experience , the people who make the most noise about problems do the least to fix them . i find it strange that you get stuck into the researchers [ and i do realise quite often egos play a part in this field ] when surely bureaucracy plays a big part in slowing down the research being bought to the publics use . for example , operating within existing legislation which is quite often enacted by politicians who do not understand the science involved , the FDA insists on clinical trials etc. before registering a drug/ allowing a proceedure to be used , drug companies do their figures on projected returns before deciding how much money to grant for R&D , doctors/surgeons will not proceed with a proceedure before it has been widely peer reviewed and of course there is always the litigation fear [ remembering that the U.S.A. is the most litigious country in the world ]. these are administrative bottle necks which i am sure most researchers wish they did not have to deal with . surely it is at this administrative level is where the pressure should be bought to bear to try and speed up research . this is not a problem that solely affects U.S. citizens , many of us from other countries watch with great interest research projects in the U.S. and in the case of the OEG trial in Brisbane they are not going to release their findings for 3 years . i personally know 3 researchers tied up with SCI + Dr. young and i am sure all of them would consider it one of the most satisfying days of their life when it can be said '' suffering from SCI is in the past'' . compare that to ringing a bureaucrat with a problem - first you get to listen to ''greensleeves '' for at least 30 mins. - you get someone who asks a lot on inconsequential questions like ''what size underwear do you have on , and , how many bowel movements in the last week '' , only to have them tell you this is not their area of expertise -- you then get passed on through a few dozen more people asking similar questions , - only to find that the only person who can help you is on a motivation/leadership/customer relations -or playing golf ! the administrative level is the one most in need of a change of attitude and red tape restrictions .
    dogger

    every day i wake up is a good one .

    [This message was edited by dogger on Jan 08, 2003 at 12:45 AM.]

    [This message was edited by dogger on Jan 08, 2003 at 12:47 AM.]

  10. #80
    Senior Member mikek's Avatar
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    Wise you should be proud !!!

    The more researchers that you train and
    possibly absorb your enthuisiam increses our
    chances. Dr. Albert Goodgold who I have known
    for over 25 years is very proud of YOU!!!!

    I did a search of the NIH and found that there were
    863 grants involving sci from cell research to ambulatory
    training and I wish that someone in our government could
    tie them altogether in the big picture instead of all
    these little fuedal states of research.There is a lot
    of money. The 4 ap trials recently received over $800,000.
    and I know NY state and city have millions in grants
    at MT. Sinai and NYU.

    Howevere the future looks so much more promising than it
    did 2 years ago.

    Thanks for all your efforts and for your unwavering support !!!

    Mike

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