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Thread: Icon Wheelchairs are now available for sale.

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    Speaking of real world testing, have you jumped off any loading docks or 4 foot tall stone blocks in an Icon yet?

    I miss those videos.
    I just leave here a video for if he need some inspiration, hey wait a minute!! that bike dosen`t have suspensión?

  2. #22
    Senior Member canuck's Avatar
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    There are too many small ones on my ZRA that's for sure, but it's also the most solid and maintence free chair I have ever owned. I've had it for it for 7 years and it's still solid as a rock. The A4 at 4.5 years was garbage. I was in a hurry when I wrote that remark about liability, should have said safety concern instead.

    Scott I've been wheeling for 30 years I do have a fairly good idea of the issues that crop up. I also know a lot of people neglect there chair maintence.



    Quote Originally Posted by -scott- View Post
    @Canuck & Tooley, you guys need relax a little before assuming that fasteners will be a nightmare. The Icon hasn't even made it to production. My Marvel was basically maintenance-free once everything was set, and the quality of the Icon should be equal if not greater than the M1.

    It's not a manufacturer liability issue if you can't personally turn a wrench, by the way. I'm not knocking your concern, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

    How many fasteners are on your ZRA, just out of curiosity?

  3. #23
    Senior Member canuck's Avatar
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    Thanks for answering the questions Jeff. like I said in responding to Scott's post I''ve been wheeling for 30 years and have experienced some pretty poor engineering and manufacturing which has resulted in major problems trying to sort them out when I'm on my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    @canuck and tooley - the concern over the fasteners is a legitimate one, but like -scott- said, our last effort didn't rattle loose and was a non-issue once it was set. There are ways of doing things, and then there are ways of doing them well, and we're committed to spending the time and energy to design and engineer to the highest standard, and to spending the money on good tooling for tight tolerances and on high quality fasteners - if it costs us an amount more per chair to use fasteners that won't be a problem, we're saving ourselves money in the long run because we'll deal with less problems.

    The Icon has significantly less fasteners/hardware than our last effort, and not many more than other chairs that are currently in the market, and the quality will be top shelf.

    On the "turning a wrench" thing - we worked really hard to make as many of the adjustments as possible tool free - this was so that the number of people who could help out wasn't limited to those with an extensive toolbox.

    We also made conscious decisions about how to shape parts that need to be turned in such a way that they can be turned with limited finger dexterity...like -scott- said, there's just a reality that arises at some point that as manufacturers we can't do anything about except to do what we can to make things as easy to adjust as possible - and limited finger dexterity was one of our design parameters from day one.

    @canuck - we did run FEA simulations for shear and plastic strain on the chair with hardware in it.

    @Donno - The adjustments are really easy to do - Christian is sitting in a prototype, and tweaks and adjusts it depending on what he's got planned for the day.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    I just leave here a video for if he need some inspiration, hey wait a minute!! that bike dosen`t have suspensión?
    I am . . . impressed . . . not to mention in awe . . .
    Chas
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    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
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  5. #25
    Senior Member DaleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    I just leave here a video for if he need some inspiration, hey wait a minute!! that bike dosen`t have suspensión?
    That was incredible. Absolutely incredible.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    I just leave here a video for if he need some inspiration, hey wait a minute!! that bike dosen`t have suspensión?
    His knees are suspension... He wouldnt want to make some of those jumps sitting on the seat!

  7. #27
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    I'm in the market for a new chair. when will it be on sportaid?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    I just leave here a video for if he need some inspiration, hey wait a minute!! that bike dosen`t have suspensión?
    @Lee1 - you beat me to it. You're absolutely right - sorry, Toto, but that bike actually does have a great suspension system - about 30 inches of travel delivered through one of the best suspension systems ever invented - legs.

    That video really is crazy...makes me want to go find a loading dock....

    @Toto - I'm kind of surprised that you seem like you're not a fan of suspension? I saw your posts on the carbon fiber by strips seat and you seemed really excited about going off curbs and so on with the suspension that modification provided.

    @canuck - you hit on one of the reasons why I said that your concern was legitimate - a lot of the products that have been available in the wheelchair industry in the past have had problems with fasteners and things coming loose. So asking us if they will, and how we validated our claim that they won't is totally fair.

    By the same token though, if you were buying a $4000 bike, and asked the sales person when all the hardware was going to rattle loose, they would look at you like you had two heads - because high end bikes just don't rattle loose - because they're well built, and use good components and hardware.

    We're fighting the history of the industry more than anything that's given both suspension and adjustability such a bad reputation, because a lot of manufacturers have tried to do one or both without much success.

    As an example, we hear a lot of people say that a cushion and a sling seat are all they need for suspension, or they run their tires with low pressure and get the same effect - while it's true that those things (and other things) give some level of suspension, they just aren't really designed or engineered for that purpose.

    Our suspension can be tuned for rider weight, and locked out for times when you don't want it - it's the premium shock in the mountain bike industry, and has had more money than I care to imagine put into engineering it.

    When we first started designing, I was still racing, and I totally bought into the industry rumours about suspension - I swore up and down that I wouldn't ever use it, and actually forced Christian to design a hard-tail - when we started building them and I got my first suspension chair and used it for a day, I've never turned the suspension off, and he still won't let me forget about how stubborn (and wrong) I was.

    I've had back pain for about 25 years - it's not entirely gone, but it's never been better since I got suspension.

    The only time I turn the suspension off is when I go to the gym to lift - and sometimes forget to turn it back on when I leave - going off the curb to get in my car with the suspension locked out is a good reminder of how useful it is.

    The same bad reputation thing is true of adjustability because of the history of poorly designed and under-engineered adjustable chairs.

    Particularly for anyone who is concerned with push efficiency, being able to experiment with sitting positions, and adjust things in very tiny increments, and try new sitting positions is just such a valuable thing - again, going back to my racing days, I remember adjusting my position just a tiny bit and seeing dramatic improvements in performance.

    @NW-Will - I'll run your idea by the marketing department....

  9. #29
    Senior Member Edinburgh Colin's Avatar
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    Congratulation to you both for getting to 'the starting line
    Jeff, we traded some mails earlier this year about distribution in the UK and particularly Scotland, did you manage to do something so I might get to see/try one of these babys in the flesh so to speak?
    EC

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffAdams View Post
    There are ways of doing things, and then there are ways of doing them well, and we're committed to spending the time and energy to design and engineer to the highest standard, and to spending the money on good tooling for tight tolerances and on high quality fasteners - if it costs us an amount more per chair to use fasteners that won't be a problem, we're saving ourselves money in the long run because we'll deal with less problems.

    This just isn't a sales pitch. Taking the necessary measures to implement careful manufacturing processes makes a night-and-day difference when it comes to things like wheelchairs and bicycles. Many of the problems that w/c users have experienced in the past are a combination of poor design and low-tolerance manufacturing practices. If the proper measures are taken to ensure that everything is made to tight tolerances (and good design practices), there won't be issues such as fasteners rattling loose. There are people out there riding mountain bikes that haven't had to tighten a seatpost clamps or handlebar stem for years. If two mating surfaces have a precision fit, very little clamping force is needed to hold them indefinitely.

    So, for anyone concerned about the number of fasteners on this chair, I wouldn't worry too much. It sounds as though the folks at Icon have already taken such things into consideration. Of course, the real test will be after users have flogged them for a few years. Regardless, I'm just glad to see people making genuine efforts to create new adaptive equipment. It seems that a lot of "innovation" over the last few years has been little more than aesthetic (or cost-cutting measures being pawned off as innovation.) I don't think the Icon chair would be a good candidate for me as I am pretty rough on my equipment (my chair has fallen out of a moving vehicle). Still, I'm excited to see new developments that elevate the standard and break down a lot of the myths and preconceived ideas that seem to be so prevalent in the adaptive equipment industry.

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