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Thread: Dr. Young on Cloning & an Opposing View

  1. #41
    Great questions Rick.
    EMBRACING THE POSSIBILITIES

  2. #42
    Rick,

    I disagree that the silence is deafening. In fact, many scientists and clinicians have already privately and publicly condemned Hwang's behavior. Many have commented that it is sad. Some have been outraged. Some have even expressed unfortunately misgivings about all Korean research. I have already done my share of "if these reports are true..." statements even before all the data is in.

    You have said repeatedly that the silence has very damaging to the field. I am not sure that this is the case. When I spoke up in defense of Hwang earlier, it was before there was *any* evidence of wrong-doing, when there was a lot of speculative accusations. What Seoul National University is doing is unusual, holding press conferences every other days, often times with incomplete information. This is what is feeding the press frenzy.

    In a few weeks, both Korean and U.S. institituions will issue their reports. I would like to take the time to evaluate the evidence because there is much about the situation that I do not understand. As I have pointed out earlier, there are parts of this story that just don't make sense to me. When you have a large laboratory where dozens of scientists are working on cloning of the cells, how is it possible that one scientist (Hwang) is able to fool everybody on the team and outside reviewers as well, including Schatten who presumably visited the laboratory many times? Why did they not freeze more of the cells? What is the role of Mizmedi? What are the roles of the subordinates? These are questions that hold me back.

    I am not sure that waiting a few weeks will cause further damage to the field.

    Wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickhemi
    Wise,

    Why the delay?

    You can start with "If these reports are true...". Investagations ARE being completed every day.

    I feel that this area of the scientific community is losing credibility and integrity with each passing article (which have been steadily coming in for what, 2 months). The silence is deafening.

    Time to stop the bleeding. Call it like you see it. Don't wait for somebody else and then say "Yea, me too!".

    We need a LEADER that we can believe in. Be that man.
    Last edited by Wise Young; 01-05-2006 at 07:21 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    Rick,

    I disagree that the silence is deafening. In fact, many scientists and clinicians have already privately and publicly condemned Hwang's behavior. Many have commented that it is sad. Some have been outraged. Some have even expressed unfortunately misgivings about all Korean research. I have already done my share of "if these reports are true..." statements even before all the data is in.

    You have said repeatedly that the silence has very damaging to the field. I am not sure that this is the case. When I spoke up in defense of Hwang earlier, it was before there was *any* evidence of wrong-doing, when there was a lot of speculative accusations. What Seoul National University is doing is unusual, holding press conferences every other days, often times with incomplete information. This is what is feeding the press frenzy.

    In a few weeks, both Korean and U.S. institituions will issue their reports. I would like to take the time to evaluate the evidence because there is much about the situation that I do not understand. As I have pointed out earlier, there are parts of this story that just don't make sense to me. When you have a large laboratory where dozens of scientists are working on cloning of the cells, how is it possible that one scientist (Hwang) is able to fool everybody on the team and outside reviewers as well, including Schatten who presumably visited the laboratory many times? Why did they not freeze more of the cells? What is the role of Mizmedi? What are the roles of the subordinates? These are questions that hold me back.

    I am not sure that waiting a few weeks will cause further damage to the field.

    Wise.
    Oh well, I tried.

    So be it, we'll wait longer for that 'proper' response.

    One last question, are you done defending the man yet? Or is it, 'Shame on that bad old University for having press conferences whenever they have new information'.

    I'm glad to hear that this story doesn't make sense to you, if it did, I'd be concerned. As far as 'fooling' everyone, perhaps it was more like wielding his "National Hero" sword wherever he could. I have no doubt he OWNED that university, up til the American doc pulled away.

    Whatever, good luck.
    Rick

    GO FORWARD! 2 FIGHT! PARALYSIS!

  4. #44
    Rick,

    I understand your feelings but I think that you are misinterpreting me when you think that I am making judgments of the Seoul National University investigation or that I am still "defending" Woo-Suk Hwang. I am trying my best to withhold judgment until all the information is available. What seems to be bothering you is the possibility that the public perceives that similar scientific fraud could be occurring in the United States. So, perhaps I should discuss why large-scale scientific fraud is difficult and very unlikely to occur in the United States.

    First, scientific ethics education is very strong in the United States. Even at the undergraduate level, students are taught that it is absolutely wrong to plagiarize, to take credit for somebody's work, and to fudge or fake data. It is difficult to imagine any student, postdoctoral fellow, or faculty member complying with a request or an order to fake data.

    Second, the risk of such behavior is so great that no scientist that I know would allow such behavior to occur in his or her laboratory. A scientist would not only lose all credibility but also his or her tenure, job, and ability to do science, should the scientist be discovered to be engaging in scientific misconduct, much less outright fraud.

    Third, in a large laboratory where multiple scientists are involved in a research project and the way most laboratories are run in the United States, there is open communication amongst members of a research team. Some members will know or at least suspect any fakery.

    Fourth, there are strong and effective procedures for protecting and maintaining the anonymity of whistleblowers at U.S. universities. Any student, postdoctoral fellow, or faculty member can submit an anonymous complaint to established administrators in a university.

    Given the widespread ethical training of scientists, the risk of severe punishments that is associated with any scientific misconduct, the difficulty of hiding misconduct or fraud in a large laboratory setting, and the protection of whistleblowers, outright scientific fraud is virtually impossible.

    This is of course not to say that scientific fraud cannot occur in small laboratories by one principle investigator who is doing most of the work, or a subordinate who does the work and then lies to his or her supervisor. It also does not mean that transgressions cannot occur, such as omission or addition of a data point, plagiarism, inaccurate description of the data or experiment, or failure to report contradictory data.

    The National Institutes of Health mandates that research ethics courses be part of all training programs for predoctoral and postdoctoral programs, and this has been so since the 1970's. Most students should have been exposed to what scientific misconduct is, how to avoid it, and what to do if they encounter it. Even though the temptation may be great, the risk of discovery is very high and punishment is severe. There are few behaviors that would be sufficient to fire a tenured professor. One of them is scientific fraud.

    I hope that this helps.

    Wise.
    Last edited by Wise Young; 01-06-2006 at 07:10 PM.

  5. #45
    oh brother. the media reports i could tell you about when i was on the top secret stealth bomber project so many lies. 60 minutes aired a huge "analysis" of which most of their data was wrong.

    if one is going to base opinions, let alone judgements, on media reports, well all i gotta say is wake up.

    btw, i have no idea what happened in hwang's lab. and btw, neither does the media. you think they care if what they print/say is really true? only if there's a possible slander/libel suit. otherwise, it's all about $$$ in their pockets and points in ratings.

    hold out for the real investigation. not some joe/jane blow journalism spin.

  6. #46
    Senior Member
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    ASCRM and rickhemi, Why are you harassing Dr. Young to make a statement? Actually, I know why ASCRM is harassing him but why are you doing it Rick?

  7. #47
    Thank you Dr. Wise for trying to understand.

    I am indeed looking for clear cut, night and day, differences between what is going on in Korea and what is going on in the states, even in your lab.

    I have been so disillusioned and hurt and offended with the reports coming out of Korea. And was getting very concerned that I was the only one. I mean I posted the article about the colleage claiming that she was coerced by Hwang to give up her eggs, AND NOT ONE PERSON RESPONDED! Sick. I know Dr. Young did, but I think it was buried on this post and nobody saw it. I was hoping by posting it separately, it would generate a disgusted response. But nothing was said.

    Kinda like when someone comes to the realization that their friends or trusted advisers aren't who you've originally thought they were. Very upsetting.

    But I am waiting.

    Thank you again.
    Last edited by rickhemi; 01-09-2006 at 02:32 PM.
    Rick

    GO FORWARD! 2 FIGHT! PARALYSIS!

  8. #48

    Thumbs down article

    this is from sunday's Boston herald-

    " To assume that someone who is paralyzed today to get back any major vital functions back, which have been gone for several years, is not only foolish, but reckless, and cruelly false. A chronically injured spinal cord is like a strawberry that has been stepped on, and in order to fix it, it must be repaired to it's original state. Dr. Rubinstein continued, " we must continue to care for these afflicted individuals with what we have now, while not much I admit, but it benefits the patient more than implying that treatments to restore lost function are down the road. They're not, and the few that are actually concrete, are aimed to stop the cascade of cell death during the acute stage of SCI".

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by damagedgoods
    this is from sunday's Boston herald-

    " To assume that someone who is paralyzed today to get back any major vital functions back, which have been gone for several years, is not only foolish, but reckless, and cruelly false. A chronically injured spinal cord is like a strawberry that has been stepped on, and in order to fix it, it must be repaired to it's original state. Dr. Rubinstein continued, " we must continue to care for these afflicted individuals with what we have now, while not much I admit, but it benefits the patient more than implying that treatments to restore lost function are down the road. They're not, and the few that are actually concrete, are aimed to stop the cascade of cell death during the acute stage of SCI".
    Hi damagedgoods,

    This opinion is nothing alarming. Dr Rubinstein appears a little backward in coming forward too as it is no longer an 'assumption' but a realisation! There are naysayers in every walk of life, that only serves to spur the researchers on farther. A situation of such sprung to mind in light of a tumour my grandad had removed and I included it below

    ''Seeing the way toward tumor removal

    Curing brain tumors was a radical notion when Hopkins surgeon Walter Dandy first proposed the idea in 1921. But Dandy silenced his many naysayers in 1925 when he successfully removed an entire two- to three-inch tumor from the posterior fossa. Dandy's success was due in part to his innovation called ventriculography, which involved X-rays and injecting a gas into the brain's cerebral ventricles for visualizing the tumor.''

    The lab/researcher that comes to the aid of chronic SCI will too join the likes of Dandy......and there are many like him.

    Seriously as the saying goes in the UK 'The future's bright, the future's orange'

    Somebody, somewhere, sometime soon, will provide the cream for all of our strawberry's!
    Last edited by Cherry; 01-16-2006 at 04:05 PM.

  10. #50
    Last edited by cmjhzs; 11-14-2006 at 04:20 PM.

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