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Thread: flow voids in vertebral arteries in spinal column area??

  1. #1

    flow voids in vertebral arteries in spinal column area??

    sorry i have not actually been here for a while. wayy too much crap in my life and trying to deal with it. i have a hemicord injury created by attempting to try and resect what is called a cavernous hemangioma that i was told i was born with smack in the almost entire L side of my spinal cord, right AT the c 8 nerve level? this left me with a ton of 'damaged" crap in my cord and created insane "syndromes from hell" too to have to deal with, that i am sure many of you are also dealing with as well.

    anyhoo, recently i had yet another(this makes ten actually) c spine MRI to check on how things simply were/are in there becasue of increase in pain in all my upper torso/muscle along wioth pain right in the middle to back of my neck too and radiculopathic crap goin on in every singe finger except the forefinger and the thumb(but both are heavily damaged from fine motor function loss from above surgery). i was also getting ALOT of pain on the R side of my neck with a much more 'dense" feeling, like 'fuller' than the L side, which i am assuming is all the scar tissue from also needing my c 6 7 herniated disc decomped and fused back in 02?

    i really did feel like there was simply 'something' that from time to time, while usually turning my head to the L only while my body was facing kinda forward would make me instantly like dizzy/a dn also just felt like instant vertigo for the period of time i had my head turened in that posistion? but everything'normalized' when i turned my head back in line with my freaky body.

    well, my MRI report this time around DID appear to actually pick up on 'something' to do with my blood vessels, it is in such an insane area it is really boggling my mind and also since it is also in BOTH vertebral arteries(both R and L sides) which is also on the L where i have as far as i know, no actual scar tissue from the two anterior appoach surgeries for my herniated c 67 with the second one needed to place hardware after the initial fusion never occured?

    although, the backs of c 6 thru T 1 had to be removed so the NS could actually even access my cord back in 03 and it does mention a 'laminectomy defect on that L side i believe right at this very same level where the dang flow voids arelocated, it does NOT actually state ANYTHING about what is actually creating or causing the actual flow voids in the vertebrals and at THAT particular area of my spinal column and not further up where i simply had 'assumed' this was found reading the "parts" of the initial report off the website that did my MRI the other day(you just have your very own acct there)? it was not til i recieved my actual full rad report from these people which i just ALWAYS do with any testing results so I KNOW for certain what i have or have not been told,e sp with any real specialists who seem to LOVE to do this more so than any other type of doc, actually even stated that i found out these 'flow voids' are actually where they are even?

    sorry for the 'book' here guys, i am just trying to let you know the history here since i see alot of new names that i have not seen when i was a 'regular" here more shortly after my cord injurys were inflicted back in 2003.

    doc wise??? what in the heck can actually even create a 'flow void in an artery, esp more than one and in EACH actual vertebral artery since i know they only run paralell to each other there and do not even merge till well above that spinal and into that basiliar artery up more into the brain?? i am at a total loss here as to how to even figure this out right now? i NEED your level of help and expertise with this right now cuz i am simply going crazy wondering if that area of my actual cord is even getting any actual real bloodflow at this point or more importantly just what in gods name could even BEGIN to create flow voids within any given artery?

    i DO have a history of brain aneurysm with one being thankfiully found when it was still small enough and with a neck to actually still be coilable since it is located in the bend of an artery? this is in my L superior cerebellar artery just so you know? and was all perfectly coiled, over and done with back in 2005 with no complications at all.

    i am just trying to really understand right now what this simply even 'means' for me and my spinal right now and what could even create this to begin with? the fact that this just IS the ONLY area anywhere where the vertebrals simply show at all where the particular interpretting rad saw this at too kind of concerns me, like 'something" is just 'only there' in the arteries themselves but no where else kinda thing?

    ANY help from anyone on this would be soooo flippin appreciated right now if you too have ever had this occur within your vertebrals? the only place i was really aware of where you even 'could' get flow voids til now was actually only within that spinal dura when something is simply creating way too much outside pressure on that thecal and creates it by blocking that whole area when this touches/impacts the actual spinal cord?? i AM totally confused right now, and very very scared as well. i DO have a very strong feeling here tho that i am going to have to be once again seeing my thankfully amazingly good interventional neuroradiologist for at least another angiogram, but this time on the vertebrals and not my lil brain? just to even find out whats up in there?

    thanks for reading my ramble here guys. i am just really freaked out by this and need to find out at least what this really means for me right now? and i do NOT currently have an NS since my really great NS who used to be the head of NS at the U of MN here, and did my rescetion surgery up and retired on me in 06? no one even comes close to that mans even basic level of real hands on experience and knowledge that i have been able to find yet. only a TON of really huge ass egos instead? i have had enough of the insane bizarre new 'me" since my cord crap occured, and honestly i am just about at the end of all my coping abilities anymore here. too much crappy shit simply drains the freaking life out of you, as i am certain some of you already are fully aware? by the by, hi alan, hope your doing somewhat better these days hon. thanks sooo much for your time. marcia

  2. #2
    Hi marcia,
    sorry things have been tough for you and you haven't graced the pain forums recently. Maybe it is appropriate to say that I am 'sorry' to have to welcome you back.

    Here is my take on your current problem. Please correct me if I have it wrong.
    You had an MRI. Somehow you have the report and are reading the words that some neuroradiologist has written. You are trying to interpret what it means. It is frightening you with terms like 'flow voids'.


    Firstly, your doctor (a neurosurgeon, neurologist,ortho spine specialist, or a PM&R doc) orders the MRI. He needs to explain to you why he ordered the scan and what he might be looking for. With your complicated history and previous surgery, what generally happens is that your clinician who orders the test will, on his daily hospital rounds, stop by the radiology office and meet with the neuroradiologist who 'read' your study. Together, they will look at the images and discuss what it is showing. Afterwards, they may ask each other how's the wife,kids, golf game, and their next vacation plans.


    Then, your neurosurgeon/neurologist/orthopedic spine surgeon will have you come to his office to show you the scan and explain it to you. Marcia, you should not be expected to interpret the words of the neuroradiologist. Never. Ever. Your physician owes you an explanation of the MRI. He can put what is seen on the MRI in 'clinical context'.

    Many times, the clinician doesn't even pay attention to the words of the radiologist on the report for good reason. The radiologist is not as familiar with your history, past surgeries, and current problems as your clinician should be.

    So in summary, I would not try to make sense of the radiologist report on your own. Demand that you review the scan with your doctor, and the report with your clinician and have them explain what this means in your situation. Call the ordering physician's office and make an appointment to go over the scan in person.

  3. #3
    thanks arndog,really, it means alot. i personally was the one who asked my primary to send me for this particular MRI only since it had been back in 06 when i had had my last one,and i was and am also feeling very MUCH like there has been 'something" really there and impairing/impedding my bloodflow within my neck up to the brain as well,mostly dependant upon neck posistion? and the return of radicu crap in like almost every freaking finger too? well you can see the many whys here in why i simply 'needed" my 10,000 mile MRI done,lol

    i DID speak to my primary last week but for some reason he simply told me about the progressive stenosis and very vaugue stuff, but NEVER ever actually told me about flow voids being anywhere or the thecal sac contact that was NOT there either perviosly on my 06 report? i am thinking he knows i alwayus get my own copies of my own reports on anything tested since i ahve had some very critical actual Dxes not even told to me by certain docs or their sick gatekeeper NPs in the padt? and i DO realize that any given MRI or toher type of actual 'scan' IS only that, a scan, and not a kodak moment with all that clarity either?a at best,any given MRI IS at bet 'a rough idea' of what my be going on in an area and not always what any good and knowledgable NS would even see? been down THAT road enough to know that much ya know?

    its just i have never ever even heard of flow voids even existing in anyones actual arteries before, esp at a very vulnerable level like my c spine has just been for alot of reasons? and this particular area also being an area that the first NS screwed up so badly and had to go in and do yet another surgery which after what i was told about how quickly i 'grew' all that freakin scar tissue post op surgery number one, of course, when things started happening, my first thought was that i just have way too much scar tissue attacking like my carotid, never once ever thinking it could be the vertebrals, and on BOTH sides?? and my level of SCI is also hangin right there too, well it all kind of freaked me out in certain ways?

    the thing here also is i do NOT yet or have not been able to even find a good NS to even see over the past years sice the wonderul NS who did my spinal cord surgery simply retired back in 06, so even finding THAT will be very time consuming. and i know the interventional neurorad i already have is very very good at what he does, so much so that getting in to even see HIM is going to be a wait and a half. in this meantime, i have something supposedly in both vertebrals that i just NEED to simply find out what creates them and what the "possibles' are here before i go crazy while in full "wait mode" ya know what i mean arndog?

    believe me, i so totally uinderstand what can and may be a figmant of any interpretting rads imagination to the point that most good NSs will not even bother to look at what any mere rad states in most rad reports done on my films, and that IS why you are always told to bring your films to any visist too? its just what IS/was found there that is creepin me out just being where it is at all, and the type of finding it just is on both sides, not only the side full of scar tissue here that is compelling me to find some type of real solid explanation while i 'wait'? i am sure pretty much everyone here has been 'stuck" in that 'wait zone' while they go crazy waiting for ANY real type of even possible explanation on a particular finding but simply cannot get in to GET said explanation too? this is just the flippin reality of what any patients, esp with spinal cord injury and alll the freaky crap that comes along for that lil ride for the rest of your life simply has also gone thru too?

    i just wanted/ needed some sort of 'whys/hows" thats all so i can at least have some idea while i wait and wait thru all the usual crap to finally even GET to someone who just CAN look at my actual films or simply do that angio for me and tell me whats goin on arndog, nothing more. trust me hon, i KNOW all about what you mentioned above since this is/was my 19th? MRI i have had to have done of various body parts and also six other surgeries and my annie coiling too. what ANY mere rad states on any given report can and usually is much different in some respects to what a much more just totally expereiced and hands on knowledgable surgeon/specialist would simply just see or already 'know'? but in this particular case. i already KNEW going into that MRI that i DID definitely have some sort of real 'bloodflow' issue going on, then seeing THAT right at a known trouble spot in many ways simply kind of confirmed THAT part for me in my head as the possible reason for what i had been alrready experiencing for like months at the very least? so that just simply 'fits' with my ongoing and present symptoms here, and of course, what scares me the most ya know? i just want and need to know what in the heck can cause/create flow voids esp within the vertebrals, thats all hon.

    i just thouhgt that knowing what a really great place this just is and how much crap goes along with spinal injury crap too that at least someone may have had this occur within their vertebrals in the spinal cord or that doc wise would simply have some ideas here too? this site was instrumental in me even beginning to truely understand the 'new me" after my cord injuries started displaying all of the very seperate and highly individual parts of my damage and the lovely and too numerous types of syndromes i actually was dxed with like just during that intial first year of 'healing', or waking up in the recovery room with that sick central pain already sitting there just waiting for me to 'feel it'? sorry i have not popped in more often than right now.

    but i have run across a few different plain old 'spinal' sites where the people on these sites are posting questions related to 'possible' spinal crap they are dealing with and wondering whats wrong or who they really need to see? so just using what i have been thru to try and get certain people even TO the proper places with the appropriate types of testing being done,usually based upon some really crazy symptoms they are experiencing so they do NOT even have to end up in any forums like this one, to me, really seemd like something i at least "could do" to try and prevent what would happen if they did nothing mostly out of fear? or well after their damage has been done? i am also, among other crappy medical stuff with my son and myself, dealing with what is called polycystic kidney and liver disease and trying to deal with this very real decline in my kidney and liver fuctions while the organs balloon up to sizes i never ever thought was actually possible without them simply exploding?

    so i see this type of finding with my symptoms, which i just honestly do NOT need right now, and yep, i get a bit freaked out arndog. its been alot to have to keep on dealing with everytime you 'think' things are going to fianlly get better and simply somewhat 'stabilize' for you, its ALWAYS something new to screw that up? i just kind of got a feeling from your post to me that i am doing something wrong by 'coming back' here after not being a continuous ongoing poster or something? i really ment no harm arndog, just very scared about what i am feeling right now and knowing what my findings were on that MRI and seeing the connection? but also simply wanting to know what in the heck could simply create this? i really am sorry that i have not been back here in a while. just helping people in other ways and dealing with way too much ongoing crap to always be able to even 'be' anywhere really on any continuous basis. but thanks alot for your help arndog, and i really do mean that. i am just scared, thats and and my primary does not fully realize what impacts even having cord injuries just can do to a human being? but he IS a really great and caring doc who i trust to do whatever is and has been needed for me to always get to the appropriate places when he knows something is way over his head. he tries ya know?. and thats why i love this doc, he simply DOES care about all his patients and has been thru ALL my ongoing crappy stuff right there with me. i just do not know why he did not mention the worst of the worst findings this time around over the phone when my results initially came to him first like four days post MRI? as opposed to when he told me over the phone that they saw what appeared to be an actual AVM smack in my cord that night back in 01?

    like i mentioned already, just really scared AND very confused here. i will have to do some research to find out alot of different things here that are going on right now inside this freakshow body i have been so 'gifted" with, so we will simply add this latest to my lil list O stuff too, lol. hopefully this will turn out to be a figment of an uneducated interpretting rads lil brain, huh?thank you for taking the time to answer me arndog, and sorry if if i somehow did something wrong here too. it was not at all what i wanted to do. marcia

  4. #4
    That is too bad that the NS that you liked has retired. That sucks that you have to spend the labor day weekend and then some wondering what that report means. I would take a break from worrying if that is possible. I would put in a call to your primary doc and see if he is on call this weekend and would he be kind enough to give you a call to ask about the wording of the scan report. I think he will be your best bet at getting the quickest answer of the meaning of the words on your scan. I wish you had a NS or a neurologist to help you understand it.

    The best thing I can think of to do is to try to take action to have the primary meet with you to review the wording on the report ASAP, and then, I would try not to suffer from worrying only because it won't help you.

  5. #5
    thanks for taking the time to answer me, agiin arndog. i am going to have to call today and see if i can at the very least, get in to the said primary to at least see when i can obtain that angio. i just do think that THAT realistically is going to be my very best bet here in finding out probably more than i even could by any NS simply 'looking' at my films to start with anyhow. even just an eval/consult with him would be a good start. this 'finding' is just a brand new one on me that i simply have never ever seen before ya know? and trust me, i have found the strangest more insane things justa sittin in the body over the years. who knew?? thanks for your help arndog. i will let ya know what i find out. marcia

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