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Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #811
    THankyou for updating us and posting all the information about the walking therapy. I spent today discussing it with my PT colleague and showing it to my OT colleague. Surprising how rudimentary it is-pulpit rollator and elastic bands. just goes to show that sometimes back to basics is the best policy. If this form of therapy works it kinda puts the lokomat and FES walking machine in its place!
    Really wish i could spend more time with my daughter doing this as would be so easy to replicate with her size but she is busy being an eight year old and having therapy is like having to go to bed! Currently using RGO's in parallel bars.
    Looking forward to hearing the outcome and hearing about upcoming trials in children. Noirin has T1 injury ASia A but has significant damage -from T4 with signal disruption to C6. Is returning to shriners again in few weeks.

  2. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by noirin's mum View Post
    THankyou for updating us and posting all the information about the walking therapy. I spent today discussing it with my PT colleague and showing it to my OT colleague. Surprising how rudimentary it is-pulpit rollator and elastic bands. just goes to show that sometimes back to basics is the best policy. If this form of therapy works it kinda puts the lokomat and FES walking machine in its place!
    Really wish i could spend more time with my daughter doing this as would be so easy to replicate with her size but she is busy being an eight year old and having therapy is like having to go to bed! Currently using RGO's in parallel bars.
    Looking forward to hearing the outcome and hearing about upcoming trials in children. Noirin has T1 injury ASia A but has significant damage -from T4 with signal disruption to C6. Is returning to shriners again in few weeks.
    Noirun's Mum,

    It is hard to imagine any other method that allows people to walk 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. Any weight support harness would cause sores and be quite dangerous to the skin. When I first saw this approach, it seemed to be quite simplistic but it is more complicated an it seems. First, the transition from standing to stepping is complicated and involves quite a lot of upper arm work. Second, the figure 8 bnd around the ankle is really a möbius strip. Third, many people were wearing high top tennis shoes. Fourth, they tape the rear wheels of the rolling device so that it can be used to provide some friction for the person to use to push the device forward. Fifth, many people develop callouses on their elbows where they rest their weight.

    Wise.

  3. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Noirun's Mum,

    It is hard to imagine any other method that allows people to walk 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. Any weight support harness would cause sores and be quite dangerous to the skin. When I first saw this approach, it seemed to be quite simplistic but it is more complicated an it seems. First, the transition from standing to stepping is complicated and involves quite a lot of upper arm work. Second, the figure 8 bnd around the ankle is really a möbius strip. Third, many people were wearing high top tennis shoes. Fourth, they tape the rear wheels of the rolling device so that it can be used to provide some friction for the person to use to push the device forward. Fifth, many people develop callouses on their elbows where they rest their weight.

    Wise.
    Sounds like the risk outweighs the benefit
    Donnie: Dr. Xiao, What are your thoughts on a cure/combination therapy for SCI's??
    CG Xiao: Donnie, I don't want to disappoint you, but I think it is impossible to restore the continuity of the cord or "bridge the gap" in the near future, let's say: 50 years. Dr Wise Young has been my most respected scientist in SCI. He has dedicated and contributed to SCI no other can match.

  4. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie View Post
    Sounds like the risk outweighs the benefit


    Shut up Donny you're out of your element!!

  5. #815
    Thanks for all the info you are providing to us Dr.Young. If possible, I want to know how are responding the bodies to a hard exercise routine after years in chairs. Tendons, muscles, bones (are you monitoring bone density or muscle mass changes?),... and if the patients have special diet with supplements to help them.
    -Ramps in buildings are necessary, but it would be usefull to have another ones for people (mind/heart).....

    -Hoc non pereo habebo fortior me

  6. #816
    Senior Member Wills77's Avatar
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    Isildur - thats a good question.
    Im worried about how my joints will be affected if a cure does happen. Until then I take fish oil pills and a very good multi vitamin with added joint support (orange triad).
    c6 inc since 2-19-11
    ex pro-am motocross racer
    tilite aero z s2

  7. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie View Post
    Sounds like the risk outweighs the benefit
    Donnie, I was responding to Noirun's Mom, who was raising an interesting question about the method of walking at Kunming versus the other weight-support methods that they use in the United States. By the way, I apologize for all the typographical errors. That is what happens when I am using my iPad and typing the answers in a car.

    In Kunming, they use this rolling cart, no bracing, no weight support harness, and only two elastic ankle bands to prevent foot drop. They believe that use of weight support harnesses is not good and that braces impede locomotor recovery. They eschew weight-bearing harnesses because most harnesses focus pressure on relatively small patches of skin, often around the pelvis and between the legs. The risk of developing pressures sores is high if a person walks in a weight-supporting harness for 6 hours a day.

    In the U.S. and Europe, they like to use braces, weight-supporting harnesses, and robotics. While there have been significant improvements in weight-support harnesses (I described one of them in a post recently) and walking on a treadmill saves the backs of physical therapists who must crouch to direct the foot placement, I would still be reluctant to recommend that any person do even 3 hours a day in such a harness, much less 6 hours a day. So, in my opinion, I think that all the weight-supporting harness systems are no good for intensive training.

    The risks of the walking program at Kunming seem to be low. While I have seen many hundreds of patients at Kunming undergo this training during the months after injury, this was the first time that I have seen this procedure being applied to chronic patients. Yes, they develop callouses on their feet and forearms/elbow. We had a scare last February when two patients complained of pain in their legs and x-rays showed presence of what seem to be fractures. However, upon review of earlier x-rays, the fractures seem to have been there before. In any case, none of the 20 subjects with chronic spinal cord injury have suffered any major fractures even though all of them have the typical osteoporosis that all chronic spinal cord injured patients have. They seem to be able to tolerate the intensive walking program for at least 3 months and some are continuing to 6 months.

    Wise.
    Last edited by Wise Young; 06-13-2012 at 06:48 AM.

  8. #818
    Wise, I am not sure you have seen the following consideration and quetion I have posted before:

    Around minute 43 of your talk you show a Diffusion Tensor Image of the first patient that was transplanted in HK and then you say that in many patients you are "seeing axons growing accross the gap"
    I would suggest that if you claim that you should also show a DTI image that support what you are saying, otherwise you are asking people to have blind faith in your words.
    Me and many other CC members are very anxious to see these DTIs and I hope all goes well getting the data published with the DTIs included.

    Then I have a question:

    to my knoledge DTI can't show axons, but just a "mathematical riconstruction" of the image of the spinal cord were myelin is present i.e. tissue with white matter,
    Is that correct?

    Paolo

    P.S. to all the CC members: I have donated money and I have convinced friends to donate money to support Wise's work, so I believe I have the right to ask questions.
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    P.S. to all the CC members: I have donated money and I have convinced friends to donate money to support Wise's work, so I believe I have the right to ask questions.
    Why do you donate, why don't you fix tings yourselfe. You seams capable doing tings on youre own.

  10. #820
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    As for detecting axons by DTI/MR ask Simens or GE.

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