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Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #771
    It isn't that hard - he can't release the data yet. When it is published, we will see.

    Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

  2. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by MarcT View Post
    Don't bite the hand that feeds you.


    Unbelievable, that some people are so stupid
    keep (rolling) Walking

    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

  3. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnie Walker View Post


    Unbelievable, that some people are so stupid
    I agree!

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  4. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Paolo, perhaps you should read carefully what you said. I have not twisted your words. You have suggested that I am claiming that subjects in the trial are walking in order to increase optimism and to raise funds. You have been demanding that I provide proof of the walking and brought up the Stem Cell Inc. disclosure that they have decided to go onto the next phase of the trial because they have data that the treatment is safe, there were some improvements, and have decided to go on to the next phase of the trial. I pointed out that they did not provide detailed outcome data and I have made a very similar statement, that we are going on to phase 3 trial because the cell transplants seem safe, that many subjects are having some sensory improvement, and some subjects are walking. You seem to have some kind of problem with the fact that I have observed some subjects walking. I have explained why I cannot disclose the data now. As soon as all the data is collected and analyzed, we will publish the data and everybody, including you, can judge. Wise.
    Wise,

    I said that:
    "I think it is possible that Wise just wants to spread optimism, but many people would say that he does it to get more donations..."
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showpos...2&postcount=57

    You are saying: "You have suggested that I am claiming that subjects in the trial are walking in order to increase optimism and to raise funds."

    I think it is clear that what I said is very different from what you say I would have said.

    Please don't twist my words.

    In any case in a few months hopefully we'll have scientifc evidence that these people are walking so I will shut up.. or you will be in trouble.

    As you said: "My heart leaps whenever an investigator in trials that I am doing says that somebody is walking or whatever. Objectivity is not possible when you care."

    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showpos...6&postcount=31

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  5. #775
    Paolo ,
    Please shut up . Over

  6. #776
    in agreement with duck, paolo, please shut the fuck up

  7. #777
    Wise.

    Dr. Young, Thank you for giving us progress updates of your trial to keep so many SCI’s and families hopeful of the future. Thou you might not always hear all of the appreciation or even know how many people see your work….many grateful followers are out here cheering you on. In an effort to stimulate the conversation into a more positive direction I’m asking more questions!

    1. Regarding the blood cord question I read the occurrence of a parent:sibling 6:6 match is about 5%. I understand if you can’t answer this question until after the study, but are the HLA’s matches used in the study an exact match of 6:6? It seems the possibility of finding an exact match would be pretty good with the so many large donation banks.

    Here is another post I finally was able to find discussing this issue
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/archive/index.php/t-93588.html

    I found this info, hopefully it will help others out there with the same questions. It’s not in reference to Spinal Cord injections.

    “Hla Statistics

    In the United States, approximately 30% of patients have an HLA identical sibling. A smaller portion, less than 5%, will match a parent or an offspring. The likelihood of finding at least one match among n siblings is 1 – (0.75).

    - The incidence of GVHD and graft failure increases with increasing HLA disparity. Generally, an unrelated donor is sought if a 5/6 HLA-A, B, DR matched relative cannot be found. There is some debate about whether a 6/6 unrelated donor is preferable to a 5/6 HLA-matched relative, but most feel that these donors are equivalent, and it is often easier from a logistic viewpoint to arrange the stem cell donation from a related donor.
    - In umbilical cord blood transplantation, the immaturity of the donor immune system allows a greater degree of HLA disparity (e.g., 4/6 matches), although even here better matches are associated with better outcomes.”
    http://stem-cell-transplant.blogspot.com/2010/02/hla-matching-in-allogeneic.html


    2. In regard to the not more than “3 segment” exclusion criteria, can you explain this in more detail? Does this mean 4 vertebra and three discs long? Does this equate to some length in centimeters?

    3. Seeing the constant skepticism that surrounds all cures related to SCI’s I’m glad that you are using chronic ASIA A’s to completely confirm reasonable doubt. Using a group of patients that have at some point after their injury been involved in an intense rehabilitation program and tried to walk to know the exact effect on their body compared to the treatment after the combination would be a complete validation of the improvement, but I’m sure this has been discussed.

    Thank you again!

  8. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Duck View Post
    Paolo ,
    Please shut up . Over
    Are you asking me or are you telling me?

    My intention here is to provide a critical angle to look at the situation. I am sure over the years you have seen many CC members doing that and I have learned a lot from them.

    In the same way recently Dr. Silver has provided us many scientific different views on SCI research and I think that has added significant value to this forum.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  9. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by lakboy View Post
    in agreement with duck, paolo, please shut the fuck up
    That is not very kind of you, but thank you for paying attention to my posts.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  10. #780
    Walking again,

    Thank you very much for your comments.

    In our trials to date, we have used only umbilical cord blood units that have ≥4:6 HLA match with the donor. About a quarter of our patients so far have had 6:6 HLA match. Close to half have 4:6. We of course don’t know whether HLA-matching is necessary but our hypothesis is that better-matched cells may survive longer and have more influence on the spinal cord. Almost everybody was able to get 4:6 or better match.

    The three segment exclusion is based on our protocol of injecting cells above and below the injury site. If the injury length is too long, i.e. greater than 2 segments, we have to do a 3-segment laminectomy. To avoid this, we are limiting spinal cord injuries to less than 3 segments.

    To date, we have only treated subjects that are more than one year after injury with stable neurological function for at least 6 months. The age range is 18-60 for the current study. We will likely expand this to 18-64 in the coming U.S. trials and also design a trial for people who are 65-80 years old. Many of our subjects in China are 10 years or longer after spinal cord injury.

    The subjects in Kunming have been walking as much as 6 hours a day, using a rolling cart upon which they could rest some of their weight, shown in the attached picture. I have described this walking procedure many times both on carecure as well as many open houses. Each subject progresses throught the various stages in sequence.

    In the beginning, all of them just stood with somebody holding their knees. Then many began to stand on their own and started taking steps while leaning on the rolling cart. They wear elastic bands that are put in figure-8 around the ankles to prevent their feet from dragging on the ground.

    Once they start walking, a nurse, family member, or trainer walks behind them with ropes tied to their knees, to lock the knees in stance phase so that the subjects can support their weight while walking. Eventually, some of them don’t need somebody walking behind them and are simply walking with the aid of the rolling cart that provides partial weight support.

    The Kunming group categorizes the walking into I-X, shown in the attached picture. As you can see, none of the phases include walking with braces. We generally consider subjects who are walking in category V or higher to be unassisted locomotion. Yes, they are using a device but there is no human assistance. Almost all the patients were only at category II and possibly III at the beginning of the study.

    Since this is the first time that we have been asking subjects who have chronic spinal cord injury to engage in intensive locomotor training, we have been particularly interested in the incidence of fractures that might occur when people spend so much of their time on their feet. In February, two subjects complained of pain in a part of their legs and x-ray showed fractures. However, upon review of older x-rays, it appears that both subjects had fractures in the same area before, so they apparently did not have a new fracture at the site.

    Wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by walkingagain View Post
    Wise.

    Dr. Young, Thank you for giving us progress updates of your trial to keep so many SCI’s and families hopeful of the future. Thou you might not always hear all of the appreciation or even know how many people see your work….many grateful followers are out here cheering you on. In an effort to stimulate the conversation into a more positive direction I’m asking more questions!

    1. Regarding the blood cord question I read the occurrence of a parent:sibling 6:6 match is about 5%. I understand if you can’t answer this question until after the study, but are the HLA’s matches used in the study an exact match of 6:6? It seems the possibility of finding an exact match would be pretty good with the so many large donation banks.

    Here is another post I finally was able to find discussing this issue
    http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/archive/index.php/t-93588.html

    I found this info, hopefully it will help others out there with the same questions. It’s not in reference to Spinal Cord injections.

    “Hla Statistics

    In the United States, approximately 30% of patients have an HLA identical sibling. A smaller portion, less than 5%, will match a parent or an offspring. The likelihood of finding at least one match among n siblings is 1 – (0.75).

    - The incidence of GVHD and graft failure increases with increasing HLA disparity. Generally, an unrelated donor is sought if a 5/6 HLA-A, B, DR matched relative cannot be found. There is some debate about whether a 6/6 unrelated donor is preferable to a 5/6 HLA-matched relative, but most feel that these donors are equivalent, and it is often easier from a logistic viewpoint to arrange the stem cell donation from a related donor.
    - In umbilical cord blood transplantation, the immaturity of the donor immune system allows a greater degree of HLA disparity (e.g., 4/6 matches), although even here better matches are associated with better outcomes.”
    http://stem-cell-transplant.blogspot.com/2010/02/hla-matching-in-allogeneic.html


    2. In regard to the not more than “3 segment” exclusion criteria, can you explain this in more detail? Does this mean 4 vertebra and three discs long? Does this equate to some length in centimeters?

    3. Seeing the constant skepticism that surrounds all cures related to SCI’s I’m glad that you are using chronic ASIA A’s to completely confirm reasonable doubt. Using a group of patients that have at some point after their injury been involved in an intense rehabilitation program and tried to walk to know the exact effect on their body compared to the treatment after the combination would be a complete validation of the improvement, but I’m sure this has been discussed.

    Thank you again!

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