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Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #731
    Thanks mamadavid!
    I have found this link:
    http://isoichina.com/index.php/kunmi...en-hospital-2/
    Looks very good! I wouldn't mind to stay 6-7 months there, in hospital if this will help me.
    2 main questions are -
    #1 price?
    and
    #2 what kind of medical treatment or procedures they would provide
    along with 6 : 6 : 6 walking program?
    By my understanding Dr. Wise explain that Dr. Zhu is performing some kind of operation
    to remove dead tissue and re-establish better spinal fluid flow as part of preparation for successful walk training.
    Yet, some more question balloons popping up above my head:
    How necessity of this operation / procedure can be determined?
    (Possibly, they have all diagnostic and operation facilities onsite)
    Regardless, should we do anything locally for better preparation?
    for example... make some MRI or any other tests and send to them (whom & where?) ,
    loose some weight (I am 6'-3" and 220 Lbs man ... same price? )
    do some extensive core muscles training?
    start to learn Chinese?
    etc.
    oh... and one more
    What is the best line of communication with them ?

    thank you all!
    www.MiracleofWalk.com

    Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary
    to what we know about nature
    Saint Augustine

  2. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by comad View Post
    Thanks mamadavid!
    I have found this link:
    http://isoichina.com/index.php/kunmi...en-hospital-2/
    Looks very good! I wouldn't mind to stay 6-7 months there, in hospital if this will help me.
    2 main questions are -
    #1 price?
    and
    #2 what kind of medical treatment or procedures they would provide
    along with 6 : 6 : 6 walking program?
    By my understanding Dr. Wise explain that Dr. Zhu is performing some kind of operation
    to remove dead tissue and re-establish better spinal fluid flow as part of preparation for successful walk training.
    Yet, some more question balloons popping up above my head:
    How necessity of this operation / procedure can be determined?
    (Possibly, they have all diagnostic and operation facilities onsite)
    Regardless, should we do anything locally for better preparation?
    for example... make some MRI or any other tests and send to them (whom & where?) ,
    loose some weight (I am 6'-3" and 220 Lbs man ... same price? )
    do some extensive core muscles training?
    start to learn Chinese?
    etc.
    oh... and one more
    What is the best line of communication with them ?

    thank you all!
    i am a chinese with sci,i suggest you don't go to this hospital.

  3. #733

    Dr Zhu's intradural decompression surgery

    Quote Originally Posted by comad View Post
    Thanks mamadavid!
    I have found this link:
    http://isoichina.com/index.php/kunmi...en-hospital-2/
    Looks very good! I wouldn't mind to stay 6-7 months there, in hospital if this will help me.
    2 main questions are -
    #1 price?
    and
    #2 what kind of medical treatment or procedures they would provide
    along with 6 : 6 : 6 walking program?
    By my understanding Dr. Wise explain that Dr. Zhu is performing some kind of operation
    to remove dead tissue and re-establish better spinal fluid flow as part of preparation for successful walk training.
    Yet, some more question balloons popping up above my head:
    How necessity of this operation / procedure can be determined?
    (Possibly, they have all diagnostic and operation facilities onsite)
    Regardless, should we do anything locally for better preparation?
    for example... make some MRI or any other tests and send to them (whom & where?) ,
    loose some weight (I am 6'-3" and 220 Lbs man ... same price? )
    do some extensive core muscles training?
    start to learn Chinese?
    etc.
    oh... and one more
    What is the best line of communication with them ?

    thank you all!
    Dear Comad,

    I believe the surgery you refer to is performed at the acute or subacute stage -- not at the chronic stage.

  4. #734
    And here come the fans with their open checkbooks forming lines/queues
    that wrap city blocks, all for the chance to buy tickets for a concert that has no schedule performances!
    And the truth shall set you free.

  5. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by NoDecafPlz View Post
    And here come the fans with their open checkbooks forming lines/queues
    that wrap city blocks, all for the chance to buy tickets for a concert that has no schedule performances!
    well said. the trial isnt even close to finished and people already want to buy it.

  6. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by shveddy View Post
    Woah woah woah, Dr. Wise - just to clarify here. You just clearly stated that some patients are walking. Now I can wait until the actual results are published to get the specifics quantified, but let's keep it general for now: Are you implying that these people weren't walking before the treatment?

    I'm sure it was mentioned someplace in this lengthy thread what the initial ASIA scores were for these participants and whether they are chronics or not, but could someone save me some time and tell me?
    All the patients in CN102B (in Hong Kong and in Kunming) are ASIA A and more than 1 year after injury. Many are more then 10 years after injury. None were walking before the trial. For many of the patients in Kunming, this is the first time that they are engaging in intensive locomotor training and for some this is the first time that they are trying to walk. However, all of them were probably standing at least an hour a day. Wise.

  7. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by NoDecafPlz View Post
    And here come the fans with their open checkbooks forming lines/queues
    that wrap city blocks, all for the chance to buy tickets for a concert that has no schedule performances!
    Please, decaf. You are not helping with these comments. People should not jump to conclusions that we have shown that umbilical cord blood cells improve walking. I have only said that many patients are getting some sensation back and some are walking. In order to determine whether this is from the cell transplant and not from the surgery and rehabilitation, we must demonstrate it in a randomized control trial.

    Just so that there is no misunderstanding here, let me repeat this. I did not and have not said that the treatment is causing these improvements. I am only saying that this are my personal observations of the patients when I visited the center and I am encouraged enough by these observations to have decided that we will go ahead with the phase 3 trials.

    Look at this from another perspective. If none of the patients recovered anything, we would not be going ahead to the phase 3. The fact that some of the patients are showing some response in the trial justifies our going forward to spend the time and the money to do the phase 3 trial.

    Wise.

  8. #738
    Senior Member lunasicc42's Avatar
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    should I fear that intensive rehab alone is all that is working?
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  9. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by mamadavid View Post
    Dear Comad,

    I believe the surgery you refer to is performed at the acute or subacute stage -- not at the chronic stage.
    Comad,

    Mamadavid is correct. The intradural decompression surgery must be done during the first 2 days to 2 weeks after injury. Combined with the intensive walking program, this surgery apparently allow 50% of the patients to recover walking. This, by the way, needs to be tested in a multicenter controlled trial, which we are planning. If the intradural decompression really has this effect, this would be by far the most effective subacute therapy ever reported.

    By the way, we have tried replicating these results in animal studies. We are still trying to figure out all the parameters but we found that if we cut into the spinal cord of a rat within the first week after a contusion, the edema (swelling) of the spinal cord is so intense that tissues will mushroom out of the cut site and cause further damage to the spinal cord. We had to wait 10 days before we saw any beneficial effect of the intradural decompression. Furthermore, we were not able to see any beneficial effects of the intradural decompression on walking recovery in the rats although we saw evidence of reduced tissue damage and fewer neurons dying at and around the injury site.

    There is still a lot of skepticism around the world that this type of surgery will do what they have observed in Kunming. For example, when the group tried to publish their paper in 2008, it was turned down by all the major neurosurgery journals because the reviewers said that they don't believe the results. It was also a non-controlled study and it was not clear how much of the improvement was a result of the surgery or the intensive locomotor training. Dr. Zhu and her colleagues believe that it is the combination of the surgery and the intensive locomotor training.

    Finally, because Dr. Zhu is moving out of the Kungming Army General Hospital to this new private hospital called Tongren, this means that they will be able to take non-Chinese citizens as patients for the first time. They do have a uniquely intensive walking program. Please note that even Dr. Zhu is not claiming that 50% of people with chronic ASIA A will recover walking if they train intensively. What they do claim is that if an intradural decompression operation is done during the weeks after the injury and this operation is combined with the intensive training, as many as 50% of the patients can recover some walking.

    What we are hoping of course is that the umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells and lithium are stimulating regeneration in the spinal cord. In other words, the treatment should be making patients more incomplete. In the same way, the intradural decompression surgery that they were doing may be making 50% of the patients more incomplete. If that is true, then intensive locomotor training may restore function. This has been shown by many other groups, by the way. Incomplete patients (ASIA C), if they undergo locomotor training, have a >90% chance of recovering locomotion.

    Sorry for such a long missive here. The bottom line is this. It is probably not worthwhile going to Kunming and undergoing the intensive locomotor training for six months if you have an ASIA A complete injury. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that a person with ASIA A chronic spinal cord injury, will recover walking just by participating in intensive locomotor training. On the other hand, if our trials show that umbilical cord blood and lithium significantly improves walking recovery in patients and this occurs only in patients that undergo intensive locomotor training, this would be a strong argument for starting the transplant therapy and intensive walking programs in the United States.

    Wise.
    Last edited by Wise Young; 06-03-2012 at 02:14 PM.

  10. #740


    Sorry Doc.
    And the truth shall set you free.

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