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Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #601
    Senior Member KIM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Each axon is like Odysseus. At the beginning, it is stranded far from home. The axon has to get off its duff to start travelling. It may be accompanied by a small band of other axons (axons like to travel together with the lead axon setting the path and the rest following). The little group first has to go through stormy seas (injury site) and sea monsters (macrophages). Once it crosses the injury site, the axon has another problem. There are all these neurons along the way, singing "come hither, come hither". If the axon listens to these sirens and goes to them, the brave band may never get home. So, they keep travelling, month after month. As it gets closer to home, it may stop at a neuron that is not its home and stay, like Odysseus was nearly entrapped by Circes on her island. Then when the axon finally gets home, it may find its home occupied by suitors. Indeed, we know that many local axons sprout and occupy vacated synaptic sites on neurons in the lower spinal. Like Odysseus had to throw out the suitors to reclaim Penelope, his wife, the axon may have to fight for a place on the neuron that was once its home. In the end, many axons will connect to places that were not their original home. The brain and spinal cord are "plastic" enough to use different connections to achieve function. Exercise and training will critical for recovery, by strengthening desirable connections and allowing those incorrect connections to weaken and undergo atrophy.

    The process of regeneration may take years. Regenerating axons grow very slowly. In fact, my former student Kai Liu tells me that it may take a year or more for rats to regenerate all the way from the thoracic spinal cord to the lumbosacral spinal cord. During the regeneration phase, there may not be much recovery of function. Axons that don't connect don't manifest themselves in terms of sensory or motor function. He has seen rivers of corticospional axons growing down the spinal cord after deleting PTEN in the cortex but the rats may show little or minor sensorimotor recovery.

    Does that help?

    Wise.
    So lets say once the race starts, recovery should extend further than a couple of segments. Might appear sings of recovery all over but not in a "orderly manner" .

  2. #602
    Membership Suspended fti's Avatar
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    profesor I do not blame you I have great respect for what you made.

    but you told me in an email can not determine the exact level of the lesion on MRI. so how did Dr. Leung to view on MRI?

    Dr Leung said the opposite of you it is fixed yet on MRI clinical trials and it said this in the criteria.

    The neurological level of the subjects is between C5 and T10 http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01046786
    here is your email professor

    If you are not willing to read and understand, please stop writing to me about this matter. Please. I will repeat just one more time. MRI's are not appropriate for determining location or extremity of a spinal cord lesion. Particularly in chronically injured spinal cords, there is often increased signal intensity in the spinal cord long distances from the original injury site. You often cannot tell the original site of the injury from an MRI. Nor can you tell the severity of the injury from MRI scans. People with so-called "incomplete" spinal cord injury often have spinal cords that look like a the spinal cord of a person with "complete" spinal cord injury. That is why I am telling you that spinal cord injury level cannot be assessed from MRI. We use neurological level in clinical trials.
    Wise.


    Here's the email of Dr.Leung


    I did not mean that your neurological level is C3/4. I meant the upper limit of your lesion on MRI is at C4. The level of injection would be higher than I am comfortable with. I am very sorry.
    GL.



    my ASIA-tests but deltoids and biceps works normally and all the muscle of C5 sensitivity including. my right wrist
    extension is to 2/5 my sensitivity on my arms is diffuse sensitivity.
    sensitivity my thumb and my index finger right.
    no motor function and sensitivity below C6 including anal
    Last edited by fti; 03-09-2012 at 10:06 AM.

  3. #603
    Membership Suspended fti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fti View Post
    profesor I do not blame you I have great respect for what you made.

    but you told me in an email can not determine the exact level of the lesion on MRI. so how did Dr. Leung to view on MRI?

    Dr Leung said the opposite of you it is fixed yet on MRI clinical trials and it said this in the criteria.

    The neurological level of the subjects is between C5 and T10 http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01046786
    here is your email professor

    If you are not willing to read and understand, please stop writing to me about this matter. Please. I will repeat just one more time. MRI's are not appropriate for determining location or extremity of a spinal cord lesion. Particularly in chronically injured spinal cords, there is often increased signal intensity in the spinal cord long distances from the original injury site. You often cannot tell the original site of the injury from an MRI. Nor can you tell the severity of the injury from MRI scans. People with so-called "incomplete" spinal cord injury often have spinal cords that look like a the spinal cord of a person with "complete" spinal cord injury. That is why I am telling you that spinal cord injury level cannot be assessed from MRI. We use neurological level in clinical trials.
    Wise.


    Here's the email of Dr.Leung


    I did not mean that your neurological level is C3/4. I meant the upper limit of your lesion on MRI is at C4. The level of injection would be higher than I am comfortable with. I am very sorry.
    GL.



    my ASIA-tests but deltoids and biceps works normally and all the muscle of C5 sensitivity including. my right wrist
    extension is to 2/5 my sensitivity on my arms is diffuse sensitivity.
    sensitivity my thumb and my index finger right.
    no motor function and sensitivity below C6 including anal
    a response please proffessor

  4. #604
    "If you are not willing to read and understand, please stop writing to me about this matter... "


    I think he's just adhering to your directive.
    And the truth shall set you free.

  5. #605
    Membership Suspended fti's Avatar
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    I finally understand why Hong Kong can not have recruited people

  6. #606
    fti, what we need and are owed is the data from the last meeting at Rutgers. Wise owes us this and we need to get this, particularly the presentation of the Chinese Investiagato who is conducting trials in China

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by fti View Post
    a response please proffessor
    He answered this question dozens of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post

    In human, the phrenic nucleus is located at C3, C4, and C5. In rat and most subprimate species, it is located at C4 and C5. It is very plastic. Just the part of the nucleus at C3 is able to do much of the breathing. For that reason, most people who have had C4/5 injuries often are able to wean off the ventilator...

    We didn't want to take the risk of damaging the remaining phrenic nucleus. If our trials show that the cell transplants are safe and beneficial, we plan to propose a clinical trial for C4 tetraplegics or higher by injecting into the injury site and below the injury site but not above the injury site.

    Wise.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by keeping on View Post
    fti, what we need and are owed is the data from the last meeting at Rutgers. Wise owes us this and we need to get this, particularly the presentation of the Chinese Investiagato who is conducting trials in China
    Wise owes you something?
    Did he cause your SCI?
    Did you pony up the money for the trial?
    Is all the blood donated from your stash of umbilical cords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    It is not appropriate to talk about the recovery in detail because the trial is still ongoing. Please be patient.

    Wise.

  9. #609
    Membership Suspended fti's Avatar
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    Professor young I Am very sorry I me repete because I am really frustrated I just want an explanation for this............

    you had said me this

    MRI's are not appropriate for determining location or extremity of a spinal cord lesion. Particularly in chronically injured spinal cords, there is often increased signal intensity in the spinal cord long distances from the original injury site. You often cannot tell the original site of the injury from an MRI. Nor can you tell the severity of the injury from MRI scans. That is why I am telling you that spinal cord injury level cannot be assessed from MRI For the clinical trial, we determine injury level from the neurological findings, not the MRI.

    I understood well your message do not can determine the neurological level or the extremity of a injury with one MRI it forgery to make tests ASIA and in your clinical trials you determined level of wounds with test ASIA not with one MRI for the recruitment. Then how makes doctor Leung to say that the extremity of my injury and c4 without the test ASIA??

  10. #610
    Membership Suspended fti's Avatar
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    error sorry
    Last edited by fti; 03-10-2012 at 02:01 PM.

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