Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #1661
    I am very interested in knowing what happens to spasticity after receiving the therapy. I know it is probably too early to tell, but if anyone has any insight to what might/has happened in the trials that would be great.

  2. #1662
    Quote Originally Posted by jsilver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    Please understand that it is still early after the treatment. We really are not expecting regenerating axons to reach the lower spinal cord until after 12 months.
    Please, I am very concerned that you are making such unfounded statements. What evidence at all do you have that regenerating axons in chronically injured animals, let alone humans, can travel at a predictable rate to a particular level below the lesion and form functionally appropriate connections? There is no such evidence. There should be no such expectations and promises of such are blatantly false given that such regeneration has NEVER been documented.
    I am sorry but what promises have I made or implied? I am asking for people to be patient. I said that we are not expecting regenerating axons to reach the lower spinal cord until after 12 months. I am asking people not to jump to conclusions based on only 3-6 month data.

    I don't understand why you are claiming that "such regeneration has NEVER been documented" when multiple investigators have documented axons growing long distances in animals with injured spinal cords. What about the studies by Lu, et al. in 2012, Kai Liu's studies, or even your own studies?

    Are you really seriously claiming that we have no basis for predicting the rate of axon growth in the spinal cord? Of course, it is possible that the axons may not make functionally appropriate synapses. On the other hand, it is possible that the patients will recover more function.

    Wise.

  3. #1663
    Quote Originally Posted by rjg View Post
    My pal Dr.Silver raises a cogent point.

    If axons are growing, and making useful connections, shouldn't return follow close behind? Let's suppose they are growing - why would the connections to the hands, trunk,etc suddenly "turn on" when some axons reach the tail-bone a year after surgery?
    rjg, maybe you are referring to other conversations with Dr. Silver than the ones on this site but I have not claimed that connections turn on or off when axons "reach the tail bone at one year after surgery" or any other destination. I am merely saying that it will take more than a year for axons to get to the lower spinal cord and that it is too early for people to speculate about data that we have not yet collected. I have not commented on the disposition of upper limb scores or trunk muscles, other than to say that I don't know. Wise.

  4. #1664
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    I am sorry but what promises have I made or implied? I am asking for people to be patient. I said that we are not expecting regenerating axons to reach the lower spinal cord until after 12 months. I am asking people not to jump to conclusions based on only 3-6 month data.

    I don't understand why you are claiming that "such regeneration has NEVER been documented" when multiple investigators have documented axons growing long distances in animals with injured spinal cords. What about the studies by Lu, et al. in 2012, Kai Liu's studies, or even your own studies?

    Are you really seriously claiming that we have no basis for predicting the rate of axon growth in the spinal cord? Of course, it is possible that the axons may not make functionally appropriate synapses. On the other hand, it is possible that the patients will recover more function.

    Wise.
    You are making a claim that axons in your humans are regenerating. You have no such convincing evidence to support this as I have already argued repeatedly. Therefore, it is unwarranted to propose that such axons can make synapses and imply that their regeneration will result in functional recovery at 12 months. This is pure and utter speculation and you know it.

    You are envisioning a time frame within which your purportedly regenerating axons are expected to reach their targets. There is no basis for such a prediction at chronic stages after injury. The references you cite including mine are irrelevant because they are not about normal adult regenerating axons at long chronic stages after injury. Such regeneration of resident axons all the way to caudal levels of the cord has never been documented. The chronically injured cord offers a completely different environment for growth than is present at earlier stages.

    I think it is highly improper to mislead the readership of this forum into thinking that you have successfully stimulated robust regeneration in the chronically injured human and for them to wait patiently until such axons reach their targets.

    I will continue to challenge you on this until you decide to accept this legitimate concern or you ban me from speaking out.

  5. #1665
    Quote Originally Posted by jsilver View Post
    ...I will continue to challenge you on this until you decide to accept this legitimate concern or you ban me from speaking out.
    Or the axons do as Wise is HOPEFUL of, and you'll have to eat your hat!

    The point that Wise is making in regard to this, and has had to reiterate a number of times now, is that IF the axons are regenerating it will be AT LEAST 12 months before they reach the lower spinal cord and therefore we will need to wait AT LEAST this long before they are able to determine if the axons are able to make meaningful synaptic connections. I don't consider Wise is giving us false hope, he's just keeping us informed of progress and explaining why they are doing what they're doing. He is very clear that they just don't know at this stage and that's why he's instrumentral in getting a move on with the long overdue clinical trials, and I for one greatly appreciate that.

    Clayton
    "Wheelie Wanna Walk!"

  6. #1666
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoman View Post
    Or the axons do as Wise is HOPEFUL of, and you'll have to eat your hat!

    The point that Wise is making in regard to this, and has had to reiterate a number of times now, is that IF the axons are regenerating it will be AT LEAST 12 months before they reach the lower spinal cord and therefore we will need to wait AT LEAST this long before they are able to determine if the axons are able to make meaningful synaptic connections. I don't consider Wise is giving us false hope, he's just keeping us informed of progress and explaining why they are doing what they're doing. He is very clear that they just don't know at this stage and that's why he's instrumentral in getting a move on with the long overdue clinical trials, and I for one greatly appreciate that.

    Clayton
    That is my perception of what Dr. Wise is saying also.
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Moe,

    I... don't care about what I think ... you should just ignore my posts.

    I don't understand ... words.

    Paolo

  7. #1667

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by jsilver View Post
    You are making a claim that axons in your humans are regenerating. You have no such convincing evidence to support this as I have already argued repeatedly. Therefore, it is unwarranted to propose that such axons can make synapses and imply that their regeneration will result in functional recovery at 12 months. This is pure and utter speculation and you know it.

    You are envisioning a time frame within which your purportedly regenerating axons are expected to reach their targets. There is no basis for such a prediction at chronic stages after injury. The references you cite including mine are irrelevant because they are not about normal adult regenerating axons at long chronic stages after injury. Such regeneration of resident axons all the way to caudal levels of the cord has never been documented. The chronically injured cord offers a completely different environment for growth than is present at earlier stages.

    I think it is highly improper to mislead the readership of this forum into thinking that you have successfully stimulated robust regeneration in the chronically injured human and for them to wait patiently until such axons reach their targets.

    I will continue to challenge you on this until you decide to accept this legitimate concern or you ban me from speaking out.
    Isn't hypothesis testing what clinical trials and experiments are supposed to do? We have observed the presence of fiber bundles crossing the injury site at 12 months or more after treatment with cells transplants. Over half of our subjects in a trial in Kunming have recovered stepping with minimal assistance. We are awaiting 12 month data and I am asking people to be patient before coming to any conclusions. I have not claimed regeneration nor predicted recovery. Wise.

  8. #1668
    Senior Member Moe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoman View Post
    Or the axons do as Wise is HOPEFUL of, and you'll have to eat your hat!

    The point that Wise is making in regard to this, and has had to reiterate a number of times now, is that IF the axons are regenerating it will be AT LEAST 12 months before they reach the lower spinal cord and therefore we will need to wait AT LEAST this long before they are able to determine if the axons are able to make meaningful synaptic connections. I don't consider Wise is giving us false hope, he's just keeping us informed of progress and explaining why they are doing what they're doing. He is very clear that they just don't know at this stage and that's why he's instrumentral in getting a move on with the long overdue clinical trials, and I for one greatly appreciate that.

    Clayton
    That’s what I understood as well.

    I never understood Dr. Silver's attitude against Dr. Wise: I feel that he decides to discuss his differences of opinion publicly in an arrogant fashion instead of discussing differences in a discreet professional way. I wonder what it is in for him, it’s like he’s hoping that ChinaSCINet will fail. What a shame… L
    "Talk without the support of action means nothing..."
    ― DaShanne Stokes

    ***Unite(D) to Fight Paralyses***

  9. #1669
    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    That’s what I understood as well.

    I never understood Dr. Silver's attitude against Dr. Wise: I feel that he decides to discuss his differences of opinion publicly in an arrogant fashion instead of discussing differences in a discreet professional way. I wonder what it is in for him, it’s like he’s hoping that ChinaSCINet will fail. What a shame… L
    If Jerry Silver - who knows a thing or two about the spinal cord - believes that Wise is peddling snake oil, then he is a good man for airing that belief publicly. Hope is great. If it is founded in something concrete. Hope for the sake of hope can be a destructive thing once the curtain is pulled back and the Wizard has no clothes. I really hope Dr. Young's trials yield something useful. And soon. But if they don't I will be eternally grateful to Dr. Silver for keeping my hope from running amok.

  10. #1670
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    This is the link for the Feb 1st Open House- http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/28970425
    Jim,

    the link does not work anymore even on PC, did you remove the video or moved it on YouTube/Vimeo?

    Paolo

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