Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #1631
    This is the link for the Feb 1st Open House- http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/28970425
    Last edited by Jim; 02-13-2013 at 10:53 AM.

  2. #1632
    Quote Originally Posted by ay2012 View Post
    I think this is an important part to highlight. It provides good evidence that the CPG is being activated and not, as said, some trick is being employed.
    Here's and interesting ongoing thread I "stumbled" upon, those who are ambulating w/o proprioception- http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthread.php?t=215438

  3. #1633
    Senior Member Imight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post

    We were surprised to find this. Of course, some subjects are able to move some muscles in their legs if they wiggle around and get spasms going. However, if we ask them to move specific muscles without any sensory activation, they cannot. We think that this is because they are activating the central pattern generator when they are walking. The central pattern generator is located in the lower spinal cord and contains programs for walking, trotting, running, etc. In order for the program to run, it must get sensory feedback from the legs. Note that sensory feedback is going to the CPG but not necessarily to the brain. Once the walking motion is started, the person can take step after step after step, each step activating the next step. They have to get it going and sensory feedback is needed.

    Wise.
    I chuckled out loud because this is exactly how I am able to walk. I can move almost all my muscles however, but a lot of them are 2s, on paper I shouldn't be able to support a gait, however I can. I don't know how, but when I take one step forward, the rest of the muscles 'just know' what the next step is and does it.

    I can see how this is hard for completes to understand, but walking paras utilize this quite often.

    selfish reasons aside, I think you should have used walking incomplete paras in the trials, seriously, I think it would add a lot of benefit to the data and how the axons cross, latch to existing axons crossing the bridge.

    edit: what is untethered surgery exactly?
    Last edited by Imight; 02-13-2013 at 12:52 AM.

  4. #1634
    Senior Member Imight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamadavid View Post
    Yes, that's my son David. He has been in Kunming for a little over five months now and is making good progress. As you can see he is walking with the wheeled walker. He is now very steady on his feet and needs only some support and guidance from the two physiotherapists -- one at his side to keep his forearms properly positioned on the cart and help adjust his posture if he starts to slump or sway to one side. Behind him is Xiao Ma, the physiotherapy assistant who squats behind the patient and walks up and down the corridor while helping him to move his legs and supporting him from behind. David is at Stage 3 of the Kunming Walking Programme now -- he can stand with his knees locked and can step independently with his left leg and sometimes with his right. He walks 360 metres every day: 240 m in the morning and 120 m in the afternoon. As Dr Young has been explaining recently on this forum, people who have not reached Stage 4 of the programme cannot spend 6 hours a day walking but do a lot of other exercises. There is a lot of core work -- various kinds of sit ups and other exercises on the physiotherapy table. Lots of stretching too. The physiotherapists put together a programme for each patient and add and change things as needed.
    interesting. do you see paras who walk at the facility by any chance? do you live in the hospital or a near by place? did you have an assistant help you through your transition. How long do you plan on staying China?

  5. #1635
    Quote Originally Posted by Imight View Post

    edit: what is untethered surgery exactly?
    I have been searching for this, and still havent found an exact clear explanation of it.

  6. #1636
    Quote Originally Posted by Imight View Post
    interesting. do you see paras who walk at the facility by any chance? do you live in the hospital or a near by place? did you have an assistant help you through your transition. How long do you plan on staying China?
    There are several paras at the centre just now. Two of them are young boys (9 and 11 years old). They have been there probably 8 or 9 months. Neither was in the clinical trials. Both had surgery -- in one case it was untethering surgery to reduce spasticity and in the other it was more complex -- I can't give any precise information about it. One of the boys is at Stage IV now -- as I remember, when we arrived he was just beginning to stand and take assisted steps. The other boy is at Stage III now (I think). Two other paras came a couple of months ago -- one is the man shown walking with the walker in the video Wise posted. He was in the clinical trial and came back to continue his walking training. I'm not sure what the history of the other man is -- how long ago he was injured, whether or not he has had surgery. I believe he is at Stage III now. The tetraplegics are my son (C5) and the woman Wise mentioned as having the most severely damaged spinal cord he had ever seen. She does a lot of walking with the wheeled walker -- I think about 600 metres each day. This is wonderful considering that when I first met her last March just after her surgery (again, untethering to relieve spasticity and pain) she couldn't move or feel anything below the injury site and could barely raise her head off the bed.
    One girl with a cauda equina injury left shortly after we arrived -- walking very well with crutches. Another girl left about a month ago. She had a C6 central cord injury I believe. She got to the stage where she could walk just with someone walking next to her and holding her arm to give her support. I believe she came to Kunming about a year after injury but I don't know if she had surgery.
    We rent an apartment near the hospital -- it's about a 15 minute walk / wheel, no traffic. My son brought his nurse from Hong Kong to do the usual caregiving tasks -- showering, dressing, cathing, etc. The other patients hire people locally -- they have no formal training but some have mastered the basics pretty well. The hospital nurses cannot provide routine care, but they are always willing to help when needed.
    My son plans to stay here indefinitely. He is making steady (though slow) progress and having been through the rehab mill in various places we feel this is the best there is. He also loves the staff and the other patients. It's such a great atmosphere and the doctors and physiotherapists are always telling us that they care about each patient as if he or she were their own child.
    As it's Chinese New Year most everyone including Dr Zhu is away. She'll be back on Monday and I'll tell her about the recent interest in her treatment among readers of this forum. I also was away for three weeks so I don't know the latest on when the new centre will be ready to open. But I'll do my best to answer questions people might have about the programme.

  7. #1637
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrington314mx View Post
    I have been searching for this, and still havent found an exact clear explanation of it.
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2482/6/12
    JustaDollarPlease.org

  8. #1638
    smashms, it doesn't work on iPads.

  9. #1639
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    Quote Originally Posted by ay2012 View Post
    To be fair, none of us know enough about the science to determine how fair or unfair Dr. Silver's questions are. Let Dr. Young respond...and it would likely be helpful for a "third-party" scientist to post some comments on these issues, so as to deescalate the emotions, help the community understand, and allow everyone to find some common ground. Good questions should be encouraged.... Unless we're all content to just sit on the sidelines while these things are discussed...
    Total agree it would be nice to have an equal in the discussion to even things out due to the fact me included do not have enough knowledge within this area other than general.

  10. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Eric,

    I am not sure what you are looking for but I clearly don't have confidence in the limited data that we have to date. I have already said that we should not expect much functional return until more than a year after treatment. We don't even have all the 12 month data.

    Wise.
    When you mentioned the short time span i assume you mean that it takes awhile for the growth to go up and down the cord in a simple termanolgy. Would that be the main reason that you would have more confidence as to the positive or negitive affects of the treatment, over a longer time period.

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