Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #1301
    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    I don't understand the whole walking without it being voluntary. I'm curious what good is moving if u can't control it? I need to read up more cause I just checked in and saw this but it seems kinda pointless. If I can't wake up, roll out of bed, walk down the steps eat then walk out to my car and drive then what's the excitement about? Like I said I just caught what was being said and haven't taken time to read previous posts or reports but if that is that's all to it then the hell with that b.s., its a waste of time and money.
    Thanks for bringing some common sense in this discussion.. I was starting to think I am crazy.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  2. #1302
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Thanks for bringing some common sense in this discussion.. I was starting to think I am crazy.

    Paolo

    You are getting pissed off because you want to jump all the way to the end stage of the cure.
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  3. #1303
    Senior Member Moe's Avatar
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    Dr. Wise, I liked and understood the comparison ‘chicken running with no head’ it was funny but clear and made sense, to whom that never experienced farm life, to kill a chicken or turkey the easy way was to chop off its head off with an axe… completely decapitated, in most cases the bird will still stand up and run all over the place in panic for a few minutes before dying, hitting anything on its way with full walking/running sequences… so that would be the CPG working since the brain was disconnected completely…
    I want to thank you deeply for all your dedication, hard work and patience.
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  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Wise,

    please don't confuse things, I was focusing on what you have repoted, i.e. few people are walking, but they have not recovered voluntary movments of the legs.
    No e-stim applied.
    My point is that before I can start walking I need to stand, how can I stand if I don't have any voluntary control of my legs?

    One more thing, at the end of your presentation at the bedford workshop you say that you know no one is going to believe what you had presented, so if you know that why should people here believe/trust what you had presented?

    Paolo
    If my understanding of Wise is correct, he is basically saying that patients can't 'flex' their quads or hams on command, but the CPG allows them to remember and activate a walking pattern.

    The brain has shown significant, and if I understand correctly, neuroplasticity in other circumstances which do not make a lot of sense. For instance, many people who stutter can sing without stuttering.

    Wise, please advise if I am misinterpreting.

  5. #1305
    Senior Member khmorgan's Avatar
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    CPG versus voluntary movement

    Let's say voluntary movement was somehow restored, but CPG was not working. You can voluntarily move each muscle, but there is no coordination of the muscle groups. You are like a tiny baby who is trying to learn to move each leg in concert, except even babies have CPG.

    I think Dr. Young is saying that some patients have everything they need to stand and walk normally once voluntary control is restored. Now, he is hoping that will happen once the axons reach their targets. CPG is not all you need, but it is a significant milestone.

  6. #1306

  7. #1307
    My assumption of the CNS patteren generator working would be compared to the feeling like when one is running for a few miles, then immediately stops. One's legs want to keep moving. I have felt this, it is almost like your brain has to tell your legs to stop moving.

    I've been doing locomotive training for a year and some times my legs do kindof walk on the treadmill. I can also walk with help standing up. But I can't lift my legs up from a sitting position. All I can do voluntarily is slight muscle twitches in my legs when I'm seated or laying down. I'm a C4 ASIA C.

    Dr. Young, did the research subjects receive locomotive training before UCB & Lithium treatment? Also, from what your saying here, it seems like the new nerve "lines" need to go all the way to the brain stem? Is this correct, or can the connection be repaired & restored by just connecting the gap between the injured part of the spinal cord? (Just fixing 5 miles of the track instead of laying a whole new 300 miles of track)

    Also, what is your take on olfactory ensheathing cells (OEC) vs schwann cells vs umbillical cord blood? I would think there would be more research on OEC's since they don't scar.

    Thank you for the research and I hope it's going we'll over there!

  8. #1308
    Dr. Wise's observation of non-voluntary walking looks like more promising chance for faster recovery of INCOMPLETE SCI injuries with preserved Brain connections and chances for faster Neuro-[Plasticity] adjustments.
    I think all subjects in Phase 1 and 2 of this trial are chosen as complete injuries.
    If my observation can be right by any chance, SciNet need to change criteria for phase 3 and include some INCOMPLETE SCI injuries into trial as well.
    www.MiracleofWalk.com

    Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary
    to what we know about nature
    Saint Augustine

  9. #1309
    Dr WIse,
    Do you think the procedure of Suzanne Harkema (electrodes in the spinal cord) could be added to what you are doing there would be any benifits?

  10. #1310
    Quote Originally Posted by ay2012 View Post
    Yea, I've wondered about this...physical stimulation (touching a certain area) below the level of injury is one thing, but I couldn't wrap my head around how I can initiate spasticity by just thinking about the area.
    You have some connection from your brain to the spinal cord and it is indirectly activating the spasm. Milan Dimitrijevic has a name for this kind of connection: discomplete (as opposed to incomplete). Wise.

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