Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by kivi66 View Post
    Dr.Wise, are you sure that you don't confuse the term "regeneration" with the term "plasticity"?
    That's exactly what he says in the video. He calls it "white
    matter plasticity." Put on your listening ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    I don't know how and why people are jumping to the conclusion that umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells and lithium are not doing anything.
    You don't sound to encouraged in the video, to be honest.
    In the video you said the best that could be said, so far, is
    that it might be too soon to draw any conclusions. And you
    mention a couple surprises, such as tissue regeneration without
    return of motor or sensory. It also sounds like these results
    have made you uncertain about future treatment.

    I think people expected the results to look similar as they do
    in animals. We're used to hearing about the lab rats recovering
    in a couple weeks.

  2. #1212
    Buck503 ,be nicer or put on your muzzle.

  3. #1213
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    I don't know how and why people are jumping to the conclusion that umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells and lithium are not doing anything. This is precisely why I have been so reluctant to release any data to the public. People are expecting miracles, misinterpreting the results, and being unduly pessimistic. In fact, some people are prematurely predicting the demise of the trials and therapy without thinking about the consequences of what they are saying and the fact that they have no basis for saying so.
    Thank you Dr Young for your detailled answer. I was not jumping to any conclusion or saying UCBMC doesn't work at all, that's why I said I would wait for the upcoming results / report. What I was asking for is if we could expect a conclusion about the use of UCBMC besides that if it is safe to use or not.

    I was asking this question because this is the phase 2 trial and phase 3 is being planned and I read this.

    Phase I trials: A small group of people is tested. The goal of such trials is to determine the safe dosage range and to identify the side effects of a drug or treatment. Therapeutic benefit, while not excluded, is not the primary goal of this initial phase of clinical testing. If a treatment has unacceptable side effects at this stage, further trials are not initiated.

    Phase II trials: A larger group of patients is treated based on the findings of the phase I trial. Here, investigators test whether a treatment is effective, while they continue to monitor side effects.
    Here it says that in phase II the effect of the drug will be tested. That's why I thought we might get some light on this matter in the upcoming results. But as I understand correctly this will take a while before the final phase II results will be available?

    Whatever the result will be I totally agree that you have created an amazing network for human trials and I'm looking forward to whatever this may bring in the future.
    Last edited by Tachtig; 11-14-2012 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Spelling

  4. #1214
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    Wise -
    This post about the study was very exciting. Gives me a reason to be optimistic about research & "cures"....even for chronic injuries. I know it's easy to feel pessimistic especially if you've been paralyzed for years with the all the issues that come along with a spinal cord injury...still, this is really good news.
    Kyle

    1. Transplantation of cells into chronically injured spinal cord is safe.
    2. The cells appear to encourage white matter growth and at least 2 of 5 subjects are showing remarkable white matter growth across the injury site and both up and down the spinal cord.
    3. The growth is substantial enough to be detectable on MR-DTI. MR-DTI, on 3T MRI machines, cannot detect structures that are less than a mm in size. We didn't expect see such growth and I am amazed. We need to confirm the presence of these regrowing tracts electrophysiologically. If so, this is the first demonstration of spinal cord regeneration in humans. It is too early and the tracts may not have connected. Don't you think that this is important and interesting?
    Some of the subjects are recovering function. Many have recovered some sensation in the dermatomes close to the injury site. In Hong Kong, none of the subjects are able to walk without assistance and this is not surprising since we anticipated that intensive walking exercise may be required for locomotor recovery. In Kunming, some subjects are recovering locomotor function but, to our surprise, without significant changes in motor and sensory scores of their legs. We don't have the 6 month followup studies on the patients yet and therefore these results are very early.
    C4/5 incomplete, 17 years since injury

    "The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.” - Carlos Castaneda

    "We live not alone but chained to a creature of a different kingdom: our body." - Marcel Proust

  5. #1215
    Perhaps the use of the term "white matter plasticity" to describe the retraction seen in one case maybe confusing a few folk. As I understand it (and I maybe wrong), we are potentially seeing long-distance CST axon regeneration rather than plasticity of existing networks.

  6. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    You are welcome of course. I hasten to point out that I don't have all the data either and we are doing all of this together. This is science, not magic or religion. The data is what it is. All that we can do is to make sure that the data is reliable and credible. If umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells and the lithium combination do not work, we go on. There are many other therapies waiting in the wings, ready to go. If it restores function in some people, that is great and we can work to improve the therapy and compare it against other therapies.
    Wise, you say that there are other therapies waiting in the wings. Why can we not test these in parallel with what you are doing now?

    I know you have already done a lot with very little, so I assume the answer is money, but I want to make sure that is what we are talking about.

  7. #1217
    Wise,

    the patient data that you have presented in the attached photo (up to 72 weeks post transplant) does not look very promising to me....

    Then I wonder about bowel and bladder, I assume that to recover B&B one need to recover voluntary movment, am I correct?

    Did any patient recover at least partially bowel &/or bladder?

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  8. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Wise,

    the patient data that you have presented in the attached photo (up to 72 weeks post transplant) does not look very promising to me....

    Then I wonder about bowel and bladder, I assume that to recover B&B one need to recover voluntary movment, am I correct?

    Did any patient recover at least partially bowel &/or bladder?

    Paolo
    No, no bowel or bladder recovery, to my knowledge. I don't think that B & B requires recovery of voluntary movement.

    Wise.

  9. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Fly_Pelican_Fly View Post
    Perhaps the use of the term "white matter plasticity" to describe the retraction seen in one case maybe confusing a few folk. As I understand it (and I maybe wrong), we are potentially seeing long-distance CST axon regeneration rather than plasticity of existing networks.
    Pelican,

    I am being conservative when using the word white matter plasticity. Until this study, scientists considered only one behavior of white matter, i.e. Wallerian degeneration. Imagine how surprised we are to see that fibers not only seem to grow across the gap and appear to go long distances into the proximal and distal spinal cord many centimeters from the injury site but, in one possible case, they may have retracted. I (and my colleagues) hope that these are regrowing white matter tracts and we are planning ways to study these tracts, and of course to follow them to see if there is delayed recovery when the tracts connect with neurons upstairs and downstairs.

    Wise.

  10. #1220
    Senior Member lynnifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    I don't think that B & B requires recovery of voluntary movement.
    What do you mean 'doesn't require recovery of voluntary movement?'
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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