Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #1021
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Paolo,

    Are you dissatisfied with my communication skills or suggesting that I am misleading people? There is a difference.

    The audience of the cure forum is rather complex as you have new SCI, old SCI, all with different levels of education and differnt kind of education. Then you have people form different cultures, differen lenguges etc, some people are desperate more than others, so they tend to have more selective perception/reading than others, so I think that communicating with this complex audience it's not an esy task, so you want to be always as clear as possible keeping the lenguage as clear as possible to get out messages easily understadable by all. Then it is essential to monitor how messages are received and do appropriate corrections if needed, but the sender of the message is the one who has to do the whole work with empaty (then, maybe, a communication profetional is required).
    Wise I think you know all this better than me, so I wonder why you are reacting in a defensive way. IMO you should take criticism in a more constructive way, but it seems you push your head deeper into the send sometimes


    Regarding your comments in blue, may I suggest that you raise some funds for clinical trials in Italy before you criticize how ChinaSCINet has been conducted. If there is anything that you don't understand, I would be more than glad to answer your questions as best as I can but I cannot take any of your comments seriously until you show that you understand what it takes to raise the funds for and to do clinical trials. By the way, if you think that I am being unfair to you by asking you to do this, please look what Christopher Reeve did from 1996-2004. He raised over $100 million for spinal cord injury research during this period. Christopher was not so different from you. In fact, he was actually much worse off than you because he was much more severely injured and had no means of supporting his care and family.

    Wise.
    Wise,
    I am not sure I follow you when you compare me with Christopher Reeeve...

    About your suggestion that I raise some funds for clinical trials in Italy you should know the story and I don't think it is usefull to put it here in a public forum (as it is also rather confidential), but if you forgot it or some CC members want to know something about it just contact me via skype.

    Paolo
    Last edited by paolocipolla; 07-24-2012 at 09:00 AM.
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    Regarding ChinaSCINet, several things have been going on in the past month:

    1. We have had several meetings now with the senior leadership of the Ministry of Health in China. They have given us some good and frank advice that we are now scrambling to implement, including setting up facilities in China to process cells and identifying a Chinese principal investigator for the trial.

    2. A major fundraiser is being planned for March 2013 in Hong Kong. We are applying for several possible grants from China.

    3. I will be attending the “The International Neural Regeneration Symposium 2012 (INRS2012)” to be held in Shenyang on September 22-25. Further options for the therapies to be tested in 2014 will be discussed.

    Wise.
    Wise,

    here you sound as if they have put you in line

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  3. #1023
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    Wise is my injury complete or incomplete and what about my kind of injury and treatment from Dr Zhu? Ha she treated chronic lumbar injuries?

  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Jawaid View Post
    Wise is my injury complete or incomplete and what about my kind of injury and treatment from Dr Zhu? Ha she treated chronic lumbar injuries?
    Jawaid,

    I believe that you have a conus injury. The concept of "complete" and "incomplete" does not apply to a conus injury, since "complete" usually refers to extent of white matter damage. At the present, I don't think that Dr. Zhu has any therapy that is effective sacral injuries. As you know, she has been focusing on walking rather than bowel/bladder/sexual function. People with conus injuries can walk.

    Wise.

  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by paolocipolla View Post
    Wise,
    I am not sure I follow you when you compare me with Christopher Reeeve...

    About your suggestion that I raise some funds for clinical trials in Italy you should know the story and I don't think it is usefull to put it here in a public forum (as it is also rather confidential), but if you forgot it or some CC members want to know something about it just contact me via skype.

    Paolo
    Paolo,

    I don't think that I am being defensive. You have been critical of what I have said and have been less than constructive with your criticisms. For 15 years, I have answered questions as accurately and clearly as I can on these forums. Imight thought that a figure that I posted from a published paper represented recovery of a specific patient. I explained that the pictures illustrate the Kunming Locomotor Scale and do not represent recovery in patients that undergo this training. Unfortunately, you have suggested that I am misleading people or saying things just to raise money or optimism. That why I am asking whether you are suggesting that I need to improve my communication skills or that I am misleading people.

    Regarding my suggestion that you raise some money for trials before you get on a high horse and criticize what others do, I of course know your story and what happened in Italy. That was why I brought up Christopher Reeve. Do you think that it was easy for Christopher to do what he did? He could have gone the same route that you did or what 99.9% of people with spinal cord injury did. He could have gotten angry and felt sorry for himself. He didn't. As he said, he played the hand that he was dealt as best as he could. It was not a great hand but he played it hard and well. If clinical trials were easy, it would have been done already.

    Wise.

  6. #1026
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    Wise why dont u try conus injuries in your phase3 trials either in india or norway? Why dont u combine therapy in phase3 which can regenerate axons along with umbilical cells? What is wrong in trying lumbar injuries or conus injuries in ur trial?

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Jawaid View Post
    Wise why dont u try conus injuries in your phase3 trials either in india or norway? Why dont u combine therapy in phase3 which can regenerate axons along with umbilical cells? What is wrong in trying lumbar injuries or conus injuries in ur trial?
    Jawaid, because the treatment for conus injuries will require neuronal replacement. The umbilical cord blood mononuclear cells and lithium treatment is supposed to stimulate long-tract regeneration, not replace neurons. That is why we restrict the trial to patients who have C5 through T11. As I have indicated, we are developing a lumbosacral spinal cord injury model in rats and plan to test therapies specifically for that model. This will take time and needs to be done.

    Wise.

  8. #1028
    [QUOTE=Wise Young;1559369]Paolo,

    I don't think that I am being defensive. You have been critical of what I have said and have been less than constructive with your criticisms. For 15 years, I have answered questions as accurately and clearly as I can on these forums. Imight thought that a figure that I posted from a published paper represented recovery of a specific patient. I explained that the pictures illustrate the Kunming Locomotor Scale and do not represent recovery in patients that undergo this training. Unfortunately, you have suggested that I am misleading people or saying things just to raise money or optimism. That why I am asking whether you are suggesting that I need to improve my communication skills or that I am misleading people.

    Wise you are right about not being defensive, you are attaching now.

    If you think your communication is clear enough then I have to consider the idea that you are misleding people, but I never said that.
    I think you need to get a high experinced communication analist to analize your communication.


    Regarding my suggestion that you raise some money for trials before you get on a high horse and criticize what others do, I of course know your story and what happened in Italy. That was why I brought up Christopher Reeve. Do you think that it was easy for Christopher to do what he did? He could have gone the same route that you did or what 99.9% of people with spinal cord injury did. He could have gotten angry and felt sorry for himself. He didn't. As he said, he played the hand that he was dealt as best as he could. It was not a great hand but he played it hard and well. If clinical trials were easy, it would have been done already.

    I am sorry Wise, but it seems you are not well informed about what happened in Italy. If you are interested I can brief you on skype when you have time.
    ...and you are 100% wrong about the route I took.
    Probably the route I took is similar to the one of C. Reeve, but I am not C. Reeve.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    My answers are embedded.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KofQ
    Dr Young,

    I have a few questions when you get a minute.


    1. Have there been any additional adverse events since you last reported them in April?

    [No.

    2. You mentioned having to find a Chinese principal investigator as well as a Chinese entity to process the cells. Who are doing these things now?

    The cells are currently being processed in San Diego and then shipped to China. The doctors in the hospitals are the principal investigators for our current trials. We are currently scrambling to set up a processing center and to identify a Chinese principal investigator that all the other investigators will accept. We can't apply for an IND with the Chinese Ministry of Health until we have done both.


    3. You mentioned using Cethrin in a planned Phase 2 trial in NJ. Do you plan on administering the Cethrin on top of the dura as was done in previous trials?
    Yes, we are planning to put the Cethrin with fibrin on the dura. That was what was shown to be safe and to produce some recovery in patients in a phase I/II trial. Note that all three therapies (UCMBC, lithium, and Cethrin) have undergone phase I and II trials and shown to be safe.


    4. Do you think that the planned phase 2 trials in NJ and/or TX will impact the start date for the phase 3 trials?

    I hope not. By the time these phase II trials have finished their recruitment and treatment phase, CN103, US103, and NO103, and IN103 trials should be ready to go. The 2013 phase 3 trial does not depend on either of these two phase II trials. The results of the phase II trials should be available in time for the 2014 trials.


    Thanks very much for all your hard work and best of luck with the trials.

    You are very welcome.
    ************************************************** ****

    Wise about point #3 above I am afraid you are mixing acute SCI with chronic SCI again.
    What happened to the pre-clinical studies of Cethrin that you said you are going to do?
    There is no known effect of Cetrhin at chronic stages.
    While this treatment will likely be safe I am afraid there is very little chance for efficacy.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

  10. #1030
    Wise about point #3 above I am afraid you are mixing acute SCI with chronic SCI again.
    What happened to the pre-clinical studies of Cethrin that you said you are going to do?
    There is no known effect of Cetrhin at chronic stages.
    While this treatment will likely be safe I am afraid there is very little chance for efficacy.
    Paolo,

    I am not mixing acute and chronic. I am talking about plans. We will be doing chronic animal studies with Cethrin. The phase I/II Cethrin studies showed that the treatment can be safely administered in people with subacute spinal cord injury. Cethrin has not been studied in people or animals with chronic SCI. Why are you afraid that there is very little chance for efficacy in chronic SCI? You don't know and we will find out, first in animals and then in humans.

    Wise.

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