Thread: ChinaSCINet Update

  1. #2201

  2. #2202
    Quote Originally Posted by athanasios View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-JVvzbz8LM in this video mr Wise says about asia.
    This is interesting - since earlier reports suggested no sensory or motor changes whatsoever; no sensory or voluntary muscle contractions/movements.

    They walked despite this. Because their locomotor scores changed, despite no improvement in motor changes; which is different to locomotion.

    I was under the impression ASIA scoring only relied on sensory and motor changes- of which there were non, but instead locomotion.

    We don't even know if this walking is voluntary movement stepping.

    In my opinion it is not voluntary walking if it relies on swinging the body in certain position to trigger stepping. Rather, it should be controlled by activating the muscles from the brain.

    This of course is only my opinion, they can justify it however they want, but if it is as I've explained then it's not voluntary.

    But you don't need to worry since Jim has said the walking is deffinitely voluntary so it's great.

    We will only know for sure when it is published, and I'm probably very wrong about this.

  3. #2203
    Dr. Young describes the results of ChinaSCINet phase II clinical trials.

  4. #2204
    Quote Originally Posted by Tbone57 View Post
    I understand the concern regarding the formation of tumors, I don't think many people would opt to have cancer in exchange for paralysis. My question is, are there any documented cases of tumors in any of the trials going on, other than the Lima patient.
    Actually, very few cases have reported tumors. Animal studies of nasal mucosal transplants have shown the presence of tumors. However, transplantation of olfactory ensheathing glial isolated from olfactory bulb have not shown tumors either in animals or humans, to my knowledge. Hongyun Huang has transplanted fetal olfactory ensheathing glia into over 1600 people with chronic spinal cord injury. In my opinion, his results are similar to those reported in the Polish paper.

  5. #2205
    taymas,

    Many of the patients are walking voluntarily. They are doing reciprocal stepping without swinging themselves forward. At one year, 35% of the patients are walking up to 100 meters without help or supervision, usually using a rolling four point walker. When we examined these patients while they are lying prone or on their side and ask them to move their legs, they could not move their legs as much would be expected from their walking. Some said they could feel movements of their legs but the sensory examination relies on light touch and pinprick and usually there was no improvement of these scores. I have met several people with spinal cord injury who have told (shown me in some cases) that they can walk but they cannot move their legs when they are lying down. So, I don't think that this is all that uncommon. For 35% of the patients, I think that the walking is functionally useful, particularly for indoor walking. Please understand that these are one year findings. There may be improvements in the two-year or later findings. Wise.



    Quote Originally Posted by taymas View Post
    This is interesting - since earlier reports suggested no sensory or motor changes whatsoever; no sensory or voluntary muscle contractions/movements.

    They walked despite this. Because their locomotor scores changed, despite no improvement in motor changes; which is different to locomotion.

    I was under the impression ASIA scoring only relied on sensory and motor changes- of which there were non, but instead locomotion.

    We don't even know if this walking is voluntary movement stepping.

    In my opinion it is not voluntary walking if it relies on swinging the body in certain position to trigger stepping. Rather, it should be controlled by activating the muscles from the brain.

    This of course is only my opinion, they can justify it however they want, but if it is as I've explained then it's not voluntary.

    But you don't need to worry since Jim has said the walking is deffinitely voluntary so it's great.

    We will only know for sure when it is published, and I'm probably very wrong about this.

  6. #2206
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    taymas,

    Many of the patients are walking voluntarily. They are doing reciprocal stepping without swinging themselves forward. At one year, 35% of the patients are walking up to 100 meters without help or supervision, usually using a rolling four point walker. When we examined these patients while they are lying prone or on their side and ask them to move their legs, they could not move their legs as much would be expected from their walking. Some said they could feel movements of their legs but the sensory examination relies on light touch and pinprick and usually there was no improvement of these scores. I have met several people with spinal cord injury who have told (shown me in some cases) that they can walk but they cannot move their legs when they are lying down. So, I don't think that this is all that uncommon. For 35% of the patients, I think that the walking is functionally useful, particularly for indoor walking. Please understand that these are one year findings. There may be improvements in the two-year or later findings. Wise.
    Wise, so based on the video that Grammy posted you would like to find ways to improve the voluntary movement. One of which I think you mentioned was FES. This idea has me intrigued. Can you talk about how that might be applied? With loco motor training? What makes you think these methods may improve voluntary control?
    Thank you.

  7. #2207
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young View Post
    taymas,

    Many of the patients are walking voluntarily. They are doing reciprocal stepping without swinging themselves forward. At one year, 35% of the patients are walking up to 100 meters without help or supervision, usually using a rolling four point walker. When we examined these patients while they are lying prone or on their side and ask them to move their legs, they could not move their legs as much would be expected from their walking. Some said they could feel movements of their legs but the sensory examination relies on light touch and pinprick and usually there was no improvement of these scores. I have met several people with spinal cord injury who have told (shown me in some cases) that they can walk but they cannot move their legs when they are lying down. So, I don't think that this is all that uncommon. For 35% of the patients, I think that the walking is functionally useful, particularly for indoor walking. Please understand that these are one year findings. There may be improvements in the two-year or later findings. Wise.
    Aaaaargh!!! This has jumping up and down with joy

    EDIT: Ooops... just realised that sounds terrible - I can't even stand lol

    This had been bugging me for a while - whichever way they are walking, my life would be very much fulfilled compared to the way I am now... I'm sure most will agree, but it's reassuring to hear from yourself. Thank you.

    Just can't wait for the publication!

    Regards

  8. #2208
    I think I slightly understand the idea behind the CPG and the involuntary walking (and you have done plenty with trying to explain that part previously) but how would these patients, that are still walking at home on their own, initiate standing up?

  9. #2209
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrington314mx View Post
    I think I slightly understand the idea behind the CPG and the involuntary walking (and you have done plenty with trying to explain that part previously) but how would these patients, that are still walking at home on their own, initiate standing up?
    Barrington314mx,

    Sorry to correct you. Please, don't call it involuntary walking. It is voluntary walking. The patients initiate, stop, and control the walking when they are standing and taking steps. They just can't move their legs very much when they are lying down prone, without sensory feedback.

    Regarding getting up on their own, obviously this depends on the upper body strength. Two thirds of the patients are paraplegics and are able to get up onto the rolling walkers on their own, using their arms. Quadriplegic patients need some help getting up but, once they are up, they can walk.

    Interesting, before the treatment, only 2 patients (10%) were able to get into their wheelchair from the ground without help. However, by one year, half of the patients were able to get into their wheelchairs from the ground without help. Going from ground to wheelchair requires quite a bit of upper body strength. Anybody who is able to do this can get out of their wheelchair into the walking frame or four point walker without help.

    Wise.

  10. #2210
    Dr. Young,
    Hi, I hope all is well . ONE QUESTION: All these improvements are fantastic (thank you for your hard work indeed) , and the first in the history of medicine (15 out of 20 chronic sci subjects are walking , and other improvements such as bladder and bowel function improvements ,etc.) as far as I know , SO , WHAT IS STOPING YOU FROM TAKING THESE GREAT RESULTS DIRECTLY TO FDA , and show them the results of the trial and see if you can get permission to start using it on people with sci RIGHT NOW (requesting compassionate use permission etc. ) while you are trying to perfect the result with phase 3 trial ,etc. ? You know that People are suffering and dying everyday from this devastating injury and the compassionate permission might saves a lot of people from so much suffering everyday and even dying (people are dying from sci complications all the time , I should know because I almost died from sci complication few times ) while we wait for phase 3 to start and finish and you know that might takes many years (that is not even started yet ) . Thanks for all you do , it is greatly appreciated .
    Last edited by kz; 11-09-2014 at 07:32 PM.

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