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Thread: HGH and Testosterone

  1. #111
    Senior Member
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    I will agree with the shrinkage. I have noticed quite a bit over a years time. I don't know if they shrink down to peanuts over a long period of time.
    Fuentepjs, Do you go off of your injectibles once in a while to shock the body? I heard some guys cycle there doses. I am hoping to get on the injectibles soon.

  2. #112
    Senior Member pumpingiron's Avatar
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    No your balls dont shrink down to peanuts LOL once you come off the test your balls will go back to norm. I have done test all year round at around 400mg a week with no side effects but not everyone is the same.
    "The best activities for your health are pumping and humping."
    Arnold Schwarzenegger

  3. #113
    kelly is correct. you and your wife will notice. my wife can always tell, especially when im actually cycling. deca really shrunk me up. just hg test-e doesnt shrink them bad but youll notice the difference.

    joe, i dont know if ill come off.
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  4. #114
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    I had my testos levels check but they used a different scale to measure it and I can't find what age group I fall in.

    How do I convert NMOL\L to NG/DL??? My level was 14.56NMOL/L.. My doc said my level was fine but I feel like they are low..

    Help..
    Mark 9:23 - All things are possible for those who believe.

  5. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by dewie27 View Post
    I had my testos levels check but they used a different scale to measure it and I can't find what age group I fall in.

    How do I convert NMOL\L to NG/DL??? My level was 14.56NMOL/L.. My doc said my level was fine but I feel like they are low..

    Help..
    If my pre-med friend is correct, you would divide your number by .0347.
    So 14.56/.0347=419.596 about 420

  6. #116
    Doctor prescibed me HCG for my low test today. I will start taking it tomorrow.
    T-7 Para
    Injury Date April 8,2003

  7. #117
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    HGC for low test? oddddddddd. Interested in seeing the rationale. Normal therapy is either a gel, patch or injection. The patch never worked, I got resistant to all the gels so now on injectable.

    anything else I ape our military: Don't ask, Don't tell.

  8. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by JAYCUE View Post
    If my pre-med friend is correct, you would divide your number by .0347.
    So 14.56/.0347=419.596 about 420
    Yeah, but how did he come up with that number?
    Mol. wt. of Testosterone = 288.42 g/mol

    (288.42 g/1 mol)*(0.00000001456 mol/ 1 L) = 0.00000419939 g/L

    Which is 4199 ng / L and 419.9 ng/DL.

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by cavemuscle View Post
    HGC for low test? oddddddddd. Interested in seeing the rationale. Normal therapy is either a gel, patch or injection. The patch never worked, I got resistant to all the gels so now on injectable.

    anything else I ape our military: Don't ask, Don't tell.

    Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) is a hormone found in men and women. Women secrete large amounts of HCG during pregnancy and men secrete large amounts during puberty.

    HCG is administered as a form of TRT. HCG is an alternative to standard TRT in men with low LH and FSH (i.e., secondary hypogonadism). To determine if you are a candidate for HCG you must have a blood test showing low T, LH and FSH. This blood test cannot be taken while you're on standard TRT because standard TRT shuts down LH and FSH production and thereby distorts the test results. Alternatively, a Clomid Stimulation Test can also demonstrate secondary hypogonadism (see Chapter 3).

    Rather than shutting down your body's natural T production system (like standard TRT does), HCG stimulates it back towards normal function. Your body produces it's own T. I believe that HCG is vastly superior to standard forms of TRT for the following reasons:

    1. Better mimics the body's own natural physiologic rhythm of T production.

    2. Easier to maintain normal T levels when administered properly.

    3. More physiologic T levels minimize excess estradiol production (i.e., reduces aromatization).

    4. Maintains normal size of testicles (in contrast, standard TRT shrinks the testicles).

    5. Stimulates sperm production (thereby increasing/restoring fertility). In contrast, standard TRT reduces, if not eliminates, sperm production thereby making you infertile.

    6. Restores normal function to testicles - the benefits of normal testicular function are not fully known. In his book "Saw Palmetto: Nature's Prostate Healer", Ray Sahelian, M.D. says that the testicles and the prostate exchange enzymes. I don't know what purpose these enzymes serve, but I'd rather have them working than not working.

    The only disadvantage of HCG is that doctors are unaware of this excellent alternative.

    Doctors are usually down on what they are not up on. If you ask about HCG, many doctors will give you a variety of lame, ill-conceived reasons for not prescribing HCG. These excuses all add up to the fact that they don't know how to administer it properly and don't want to take the time to learn. I wonder what percentage of doctors would take the time to learn about HCG if they were diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism?

    Typical excuses for not prescribing HCG are (1) that the insurance company won't pay for it and (2) it's expensive. Both are absolutely false. Most insurance companies pay for it (if the doctor clearly states in writing that it's for hypogonadism only) and it 's cheaper than most standard forms of TRT.

    The current guidelines of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (AACE) indicate that HCG should only be prescribed when a man is interested in fertility. As a result, most doctors will not prescribe HCG unless you tell them you are currently trying to have children. The AACE guidelines can be found at:

    www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

    These guidelines (written in 1996 and updated in 2002) are considered outdated by many practitioners with respect to HCG therapy for the following reasons:

    1. The guidelines call for intramuscular HCG injections. Subcutaneous injections are much more convenient, much less painful and equally effective (see discussion below and/or just ask the many men who inject HCG subcutaneously or look at their blood test results).

    2. The excessive HCG dosage levels suggested in the guidelines cause a variety of problems as discussed throughout this primer. In particular, excessive HCG dosages cause elevated estradiol (E2), which defeats many of the positive effects of increased T.

    3. The guidelines cite expense and inconvenience as the reasons why one wouldn't use HCG otherwise. Aren't those my judgements to make? Of course they are! The funny thing is, if I were injecting 2000 to 6000 IU per week intramuscularly, I too would consider HCG therapy expensive and inconvenient, but also ineffective (due to E2 overload). Duh?! But instead, I inject 410 IU/week subcutaneously and find it to be inexpensive, convenient and highly effective.

    Unfortunately, doctors are unwilling to stray too far from their professional guidelines. Also, they are unwilling to devote the amount of time to each patient required for effective HCG therapy monitoring and education. That's just human nature. But we're talking about our health and future here! Think for yourself and you will see the fallacies in these doctors' arguments against it.

    Each day more and more doctors are becoming more and more aware of the benefits of HCG. In his landmark book, The Testosterone Syndrome, Dr. Eugene Shippen makes a strong case for HCG as an alternative to standard TRT in cases of secondary hypogonadism. This book is considered by many as the definitive book on TRT.

    Unfortunately, the vast majority of doctors are woefully ignorant about the proper dosage for HCG. In fact, the AACE clinical guidelines call for HCG dosages of 1000 to 2000 IU, two or three times a week. Scientific studies have demonstrated that HCG dosage levels of about 5,000 IU per week or more administered long-term cause permanent damage to the testicles (see Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230). These studies have shown that such excessive HCG dosages taken long-term result in testicular desensitization (to future stimulation by LH or HCG). In other words, long-term, such excessive dosages of HCG will result in primary hypogonadism!

    Also, the AACE guidelines call for intramuscular injections when scientific studies show that subcutaneous injections work equally as well (see Medline article 8075787). My experience as well as hundreds of other men's experience proves this point. Subcutaneous injections are much easier to administer and far less painful than intramuscular injections.

    I use and recommend Dr. Shippen's HCG protocol. Dr. Shippen's protocol calls for low dose shots (about 300 to 500 IU) at bedtime, 2 to 5 times a week depending upon your responsiveness. This protocol more closely mimics the body's natural physiologic rhythm of LH production. (Note: Effective April, 2005 I switched to nightly HCG shots of 65 IU/night)

    Below is a copy of Dr. Eugene Shippen's HCG protocol that he emailed to me on 3/17/01. If you are interested in HCG therapy, I suggest that you show this protocol to your doctor. If your doctor has any questions, he/she should contact Dr. Shippen.

    Prior to HCG therapy, Shippen gave me a Clomid Stimulation test to rule out any hypothalamus/pituitary issues such as tumors, etc. My response to this test was good. He then put me on Selegiline, which raised my T, but not enough for me.

    HCG is available in shots only. It is self-administered at bedtime using the smallest of needles (0.5 cc, 31 gauge, 5/16"). Shots are simple and virtually painless.

    *****************************
    Dr. Shippen�s HCG Protocol (circa March 2001)

    Chorionic Gonadotrophin Stimulation Test (males < 75 years old)*

    Chorionic Gonadotrophin is presently available through most pharmacies or distributors as Profasi, Pregnyl or generic Chorionic Gonadotrophin 10,000 units per 10 cc vial. Various stimulation tests have been described, from high dose, short course testing to more normal physiologic doses over a longer time period. I have found that a typical treatment course for three weeks is best for determining those individuals who will respond well to this type of treatment. It is administered by injection 500 units (0.5 cc) SQ, Monday through Friday for three weeks. Teach patient to self administer with 50 Unit Insulin Syringes with 30 gauge needles in anterior thigh, seated with both hands free to perform the injection. Measure: Testosterone, total and free, plus E2 before starting CG and on the third Saturday AM after 3 weeks of stimulation (salivary testing may be more accurate for adjusting doses). Studies have shown that SQ is equal in efficacy to IM administration.

    Results:

    1. <20% rise suggests poor testicular reserve of leydig cell function (primary hypo-gonadism or eu-gonadotrophic hypo-gonadism indicating combined central and peripheral factors).

    2. 20-50% increase indicates adequate reserve but slightly depressed response, mostly central inhibition but possibly decreased testicular response as well.

    3. > 50% increase suggests primarily centrally mediated depression of testicular function.

    Options for treatment vary both with the response to CG and patient determined choices.

    1. If there is an inadequate response (< 20%), then replacement with testosterone will be indicated.

    2. The area in between 20-50% will usually require CG boosting for a period of time, plus natural boosting or "partial" replacement options. I believe that full replacement with exogenous testosterone is always the last option in borderline cases since improvement over time may frequently occur as leydig cell regeneration may actually happen. Much of this is age dependent. Up to age 60, boosting is almost always successful. 60-75 is variable, but will usually be clear by the results of the stimulation test. Also, disease related depression of testosterone output might be reversible with adequate treatment of the underlying process (depression, AMI, obesity, alcohol, deficiency, etc.) This positive effect will not occur if suppressive therapy is instituted in the form of full replacement.

    3. If there is an adequate response, >50% rise in testosterone, there is very good leydig cell reserve. Natural boosting or CG therapy will probably be successful in restoring full testosterone output without replacement, a better option over the long term and a more natural restoration of biologic fluctuations for optimal response.

    4. Chorionic Gonadotrophin can be self-administered and adjusted according to response. In younger, high output responders (T > 1100ng/dl), CG can be given every third or fourth day at bedtime or in the AM. This also minimizes estrogen conversion. In lower level responders(600-800ng/dl), or those with a higher E2 output associated with full dose CG, 300-500 units can be given Mon-Wed-Fri. At times, sluggish responders may require a higher dose to achieve full Testosterone response. In these cases, the diluent is lowered to 7.5cc or even to 5 cc, which increases the CG concentration 1 � - 2 X. This can be administered in variable doses 0.3 - 0.5cc given every 3rd day. Check salivary levels on the day of the next injection, but before the next injection to determine effectiveness and to adjust the dose accordingly. Keep in mind that later as leydig cell restoration occurs, a reduction in dose or frequency of administration may be later needed.

    5. Monitor both Testosterone and E2 levels to assess response to treatment after 2 - 3 weeks after change in dose of CG as well as periodic intervals during chronic administration. Sublingual testing is very easy and cost effective. It will also better reflect the true free levels of both estrogens and testosterone. (Pharmasan Labs 888-342-7272 is very good)

    6. Adjustment of dosage is a result of symptomatic response and hormone level boosting. It is based on clinical judgement as much as actual hormone levels. Remember that "Normal" ranges are for populations, not individuals!

    7. Except for reports of antibodies developing against CG (I have not seen this), there are no adverse effects of chronic CG administration. An additional benefit is the boosting of Growth Hormone output which has also been reported, either as a direct effect of CG or as an effect of increased levels of testosterone.

    *Protocol adapted from "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Eugene Shippen, M. D. (M Evans and Co, NY 1998).

    Reprinted with permission from Eugene Shippen, M. D.

    Read more from the MESO-Rx Steroid Forum at: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-...#ixzz1H07oL2OS
    T-7 Para
    Injury Date April 8,2003

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.zapp View Post
    Yeah, but how did he come up with that number?
    Mol. wt. of Testosterone = 288.42 g/mol

    (288.42 g/1 mol)*(0.00000001456 mol/ 1 L) = 0.00000419939 g/L

    Which is 4199 ng / L and 419.9 ng/DL.
    I don't know how he came up with that number. It was a while back.

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