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Thread: Can someone tell me why they picked the series 2 over the series 1?

  1. #1
    Senior Member mr_coffee's Avatar
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    Can someone tell me why they picked the series 2 over the series 1?

    Hi everyone,

    Can someone tell me what made them pick the new series over the old series? I was going to tell my guy to switch the forms and he told me it would require going back to the doctors and re-explaining to them why now I need the series 2 over the series 1 and I really couldn't think of an answer other than saying well the series 2 is new?

    I looked at the options they offered like active and super lightweight but they said no modifications. For example, i don't use side guards, I'm getting a hardback, the weight difference from the series 1 compared to the series 2 isn't that much is it?

    The front caster design is cool but is that about it or am I missing something that really makes the series 2 dominate the series 1? If so then I can tell the doctor this is why I need the series 2 rather than the series 1.

    Is the tubing smaller? I guess I haven't seen it in person but it looks the same to me.
    Injured:10-16-04
    C7/C8, T1 incomplete;


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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_coffee View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Can someone tell me what made them pick the new series over the old series? I was going to tell my guy to switch the forms and he told me it would require going back to the doctors and re-explaining to them why now I need the series 2 over the series 1 and I really couldn't think of an answer other than saying well the series 2 is new?

    I looked at the options they offered like active and super lightweight but they said no modifications. For example, i don't use side guards, I'm getting a hardback, the weight difference from the series 1 compared to the series 2 isn't that much is it?

    The front caster design is cool but is that about it or am I missing something that really makes the series 2 dominate the series 1? If so then I can tell the doctor this is why I need the series 2 rather than the series 1.

    Is the tubing smaller? I guess I haven't seen it in person but it looks the same to me.
    The primary difference is weight. The diameter of the tubing is 1.25" on both the Series 1 and 2 the wall of the tubing on the Series 2 is thinner. Other features differences notwithstanding (and there are some cool ones), a lighter chair is easier to push and lug into and out of your car.

    From a medical justification perspective, a lighter chair -- an easier to propel chair -- is going to put far less strain on delicate rotator cuff muscles/tendons/ligaments and for those of us who can't stand at all, sparing our shoulders is a very big deal. Blown shoulders is not a rarity in our population. SCI-Nurse posted a sticky on Preservation of Upper Limb Function Following SCI.

    For those like myself with a history of shoulder damage (now fully healed) it provides a compelling medical justification. For those with no history of upper extremity damage but who are clearly at risk (that's all of us), it's preventative.

  3. #3
    Senior Member mr_coffee's Avatar
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    Thanks Stephen,

    Do you know exactly how much lighter it is compared to the series 1? so I can give him that information to pass onto the PT.

    I know a big issue on why he said some insurance doesn't cover the titanium chairs is because its not that much lighter than the aluminum chairs. Is there any data on how much lighter the series 2 is compared to an aluminum chair?

    Thanks!
    Injured:10-16-04
    C7/C8, T1 incomplete;


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  4. #4
    The new Z's 1.25” Mono-Tube Frame is 20% lighter than its predecessor but retains Titanium's 44% strength advantage over 7000 series aluminum.

    sez here: http://www.tilite.com/wchairs_zrs2.php

  5. #5
    Senior Member canuck's Avatar
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    I maybe reading it wrong but I think the no modifications only applies the to compodents in the packages

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by zz View Post
    The new Z's 1.25” Mono-Tube Frame is 20% lighter than its predecessor but retains Titanium's 44% strength advantage over 7000 series aluminum.

    sez here: http://www.tilite.com/wchairs_zrs2.php
    Of course Ti alloy titanium is stronger than any aluminium, but they speak like if all 7000 series aluminum are the same, and that`s not true.
    Probably they was refering when they say 7000 series to the Quickie Q7, but that aluminium is the 7005 and is the weaker of this series.
    Here you`ve got an example aluminium 7046

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_coffee View Post
    Thanks Stephen,

    Do you know exactly how much lighter it is compared to the series 1? so I can give him that information to pass onto the PT.

    I know a big issue on why he said some insurance doesn't cover the titanium chairs is because its not that much lighter than the aluminum chairs. Is there any data on how much lighter the series 2 is compared to an aluminum chair?

    Thanks!
    The debate between the weight differences between titanium and aluminum (of which there are several alloys) is rife with myth. I'm not going to go there. Suffice to say that insurance companies are correct in stating that the difference is negligible at the high end of each type. For instance, the weight difference between the the titanium-frame Series 2 ZRa and the aluminum-frame Quickie Q7, both adjustable chairs, is insignificant, the 7000-series aluminum Q7 may be a few ounces lighter.

    Titanium is more impervious to the elements and may enjoy a longer life than aluminum. And many people on this board are sold on the quality of TiLite over Quickie. In a conversation I had recently with someone steeped in the inside baseball aspects of the wheelchair industry, that all of of the titanium frame chairs offered by TiLite, Quickie, and Top End are of comparable quality. The tubing of the Quickie Ti chairs have been made from thinner walled titanium, at least compared to the Series 1 ZR and ZRa, and was better suited for lighter weight users, the TiLites for more "robust" users.

    A clear advantage of an aluminum frame chair is its ease of repair. Any schmuck with a torch can weld it, which is good to know if you're traveling and experience some frame damage. Very few facilities are equipped to weld titanium. However, I can't say whether one frame material is more or less likely to experience frame damage.

    Bottom line: Despite all the verbiage on this forum, you'll likely wind up with a pretty great wheelchair regardless of whether you choose titanium or aluminum. If my insurance company wouldn't pull the trigger on a titanium chair, I would strongly consider getting a Top End Crossfire as it's essentially identical to the ZR in features. TiLite's doesn't offer an aluminum frame ZR equivalent, only a ZRa equivalent.

  8. #8
    Senior Member mr_coffee's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info!
    well if my insurance rejects it I'm just buying it myself and then hoping to get some money back when I submit the claim to them. I'm tired of waiting around for things I could have bought years ago with my own money.
    Injured:10-16-04
    C7/C8, T1 incomplete;


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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by stephen212 View Post

    Titanium is more impervious to the elements and may enjoy a longer life than aluminum.
    True

    A clear advantage of an aluminum frame chair is its ease of repair. Any schmuck with a torch can weld it,
    False .
    Aluminium need to be welded exactly like titanium, with a TIG or MIG welded, it`s true that you can use another type of weld for an emergency but that would break very easy, all aluminium bikes and wheelchairs are welded like titanium with the only difference that you melt aluminium in one and titanium in the other.

    I want to explain a thing:
    That what Tilite say that is 44% stronger than aluminium should not be a decisive factor for choosing your chair.
    Why?
    The Tilite frame with 0.045"( 1.14mm) wall tubing is a 44% stronger than the same frame do it in aluminium 7005.
    But is there out any aluminium frame with that wall? the answer is no,
    the aluminium is much lighter than titanium so they can go for thicker walls, if you have knowledge of mathematics, you would know that the Ti 0.045" frame 44% stronger than aluminium will be the same as stronger than an aluminium 7005 frame with a 0.065"(1.65mm) walls.
    So a aluminium frame with 0.07" wall will be stronger.
    The most important factor that you have to take it in account is that Titanium is much harder, and that is more important because it is much harder to scratch and scratches will be less deep than aluminum, and that for a guy like fuente for example that I saw in a video the treatment that he give to his chair every time that gets in&out of the car it`s very important.
    A CF chair or an aluminium chair doing that treatment will be scratched and damaged more in less time than a titanium.
    If you don`t scratch much your chairs that will not be an important factor either, just go for the chair you like more.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by totoL1 View Post
    Aluminium need to be welded exactly like titanium, with a TIG or MIG welded, it`s true that you can use another type of weld for an emergency but that would break very easy, all aluminium bikes and wheelchairs are welded like titanium with the only difference that you melt aluminium in one and titanium in the other.
    Hate to disagree with you, big guy, but you're incorrect. Kindly rescore my results to True and True!!

    Lasher's web site explains:
    Titanium is difficult to weld and requires an inert atmosphere. Aluminum is much easier to weld. A titanium chair can be very light and durable, but should you ever need to weld it, modify it, or repair it, it must be done by a specialty shop. An aluminum frame can be welded by just about any welding shop or hobbyist. While we initially looked into Titanium, cromoly steel, carbon, and aluminum for our chairs, in the end, an aluminum chair with the proper alloy, tubing size, and wall thickness is comparable to other materials, and in our mind the greater cost of the titanium and the potential troubles of welding it just isn't worth it.

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