Thread: Microcyn Bladder Treatment (An Open Letter to Dr. Young)

  1. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by gjnl View Post
    To: "thehipcrip" and "ex-Gooserider"
    Would either or both of you post some specifics, i.e., the types of catheters and the types/size (tips types) of syringes that you use. When you post this information would you state your current method of bladder management, i.e., supra pubic catheter, intermittent cathing, condom cathing.
    I have an indwelling urethral catheter.

    To instill, I draw up the correct amount of Vetericyn into a 60 cc feeder tip or irrigation catheter-tipped syringe:

    The tip of the syringe is the same size as the connector for a leg or night bag. Instilling is as simple as disconnecting the leg/night bag, inserting the tip of the syringe into the end of the catheter, and depressing the plunger of the syringe to push the Vetericyn into my bladder.

    Leaving the syringe attached keeps the V in the bladder while providing a quick and easy way to release pressure by drawing out a small amount of liquid from the bladder in the event of bladder spasms or the onset of AD. When the desired instillation time has passed, just disconnect the syringe and reattach a clean leg/overnight bag.
    It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.

    ~Julius Caesar


  2. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by thehipcrip View Post
    I have an indwelling urethral catheter.

    To instill, I draw up the correct amount of Vetericyn into a 60 cc feeder tip or irrigation catheter-tipped syringe:

    The tip of the syringe is the same size as the connector for a leg or night bag. Instilling is as simple as disconnecting the leg/night bag, inserting the tip of the syringe into the end of the catheter, and depressing the plunger of the syringe to push the Vetericyn into my bladder.

    Leaving the syringe attached keeps the V in the bladder while providing a quick and easy way to release pressure by drawing out a small amount of liquid from the bladder in the event of bladder spasms or the onset of AD. When the desired instillation time has passed, just disconnect the syringe and reattach a clean leg/overnight bag.
    Thanks for your excellent post too.

    Pictures and complete explanations like yours and ex-Gooserider's give good documentation for reference here.

    All the best,
    GJ

  3. #1073
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    Glad to help out... I do wish in some ways that it was possible to filter out the good "how to" posts into a separate thread that is limited to just that... It is quite a task to go through this monster thread and try to filter out the "how" messages from the assorted other discussion. I've done it once, and the thread is now even longer. I'm sure a filtered thread would make life a lot easier for others that are considering trying to do the MCN/VVF thing...

    ex-Gooserider
    T-5 ASIA-B para, currently working on building own power chair, as being in a manual is an EXTRA handicap.

  4. #1074
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    Exclamation Minor technique updates...

    As I've been evolving technique through practice, I've found a couple of improvements I can share.

    Mostly I suspect they will be most helpful for guys doing Intermittent cathing, especially those with some feeling in that area.

    The first is a "Cheapskate trick", might work for anyone... Given how much the VVF costs, I hate to "waste" any, and the amount left in the cath when I pulled it out bothered me.. I have started pulling about 1-2ml of air back into the syringe when I prefill it - I try to get the air bubble edge just below the corner where the conical end of the syringe and the sides intersect... I then make sure the tip of the syringe is the lowest point while injecting. The idea is to have just enough air to push almost all the VVF out of the cath, but not put any significant amount in the bladder....

    The second one is more specific... My urologist didn't like my idea of flushing my urethra with a small syringe and a short length of cath tubing, as she was concerned about inserting yet another item into my urethra. What I've started doing instead is to keep the same routine of draining bladder, cutting the tube off, sticking in the syringe, and injecting that I described a few posts earlier, but instead of emptying the syringe I leave 2-3ml of VVF in it. I then pull the cath out part way, so that the tip is in my urethra (I can tell both by judging the length of the tube, and being able to feel it) then inject the remainder to give an "after the action" flush...

    Obviously this won't work for those with indwelling caths, and I'm not sure it would work for the ladies due to their shorter urinary tracts...

    ex-Gooserider
    T-5 ASIA-B para, currently working on building own power chair, as being in a manual is an EXTRA handicap.

  5. #1075
    I'm finally going to jump in and order some Microcyn or Vetericyn. Is everyone just using the Vetericyn (rather than the Microcyn) and are the ingredients in both products exactly the same? We are a little nervous about using it in the bladder (especially if it is the Vetericyn animal version) unless the ingredients are the same in both versions.

    After reading through most of this giant thread, I did still have a few more questions.
    1. Do any of the women that use this need to rinse their urethra to get the full benefit?
    2. If you rinse the urethra is it important to get the Microcyn/ Vetericyn back out, or is such a small amount that it wouldn’t cause any adverse reactions?
    3. When using it to clean the skin outside the urethra, is it ok to put the Microcyn/Vetericyn on a piece of sterile gauze to wipe the area?
    4. Has anyone tried to dip a catheter in it after the catheter is already lubricated with something (for people that don’t use hydrophilic catheters) or do I need to get the gel version of Microcyn to use instead of regular lubricant?

    I want to make sure I have all my bases covered because I am on my 6th infection in a row with the same bacteria and I really want to get rid of it everywhere it could be lurking. I have asked before but I still haven’t found anyone who has tried to rinse the inside of the Mitrofanoff/appendix conduit with either Microcyn or Vetericyn, but I think I am going to try it.

    Thanks for the help with my current and previous questions on this topic. Melissa
    Life is a lesson you learn when you're through.

  6. #1076
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    No idea on most of the questions, however the ingredients seem to be the same except there is a very small amount of one of the base ingredients extra in the VVF, nothing that would be at all harmful... Essentially the biggest differences is that the VVF is double strength, and both the plain V and the VVF have pictures of animals on the bottles instead of people, but cost a LOT less... I did have a doctor that said the standards for animal med production are not as strict as they are for people meds, but that she had no reason to believe the VVF wasn't safe...

    I suspect that there wouldn't be any issues to leaving VVF in the urethra, it doesn't seem to bother mine. Likewise, most people seem to spray the area when cleaning, but there doesn't seem to be any reason not to spray a gauze wipe instead (other than possibly "wasting" some of the stuff) - I know the VVF instructions on treating wounds say that soaking the dressing is OK.

    As far as dunking catheters, I haven't tried it, but in essence the VVF is mostly water, so it will probably tend to dissolve the lubricant. The reports I've seen on the gel is that it isn't all that thick, so I don't know how good it would be as a substitute for other lubes...

    I'm not up on the Mitranoff type setup, is it something that you use with an indwelling Foley cath, or is it more of a 'substitute urethra' that you do intermittent cathing through? If you are doing intermittent cathing, then presumably you can flush it the same way a guy does his urethra. If it is a Foley, I wouldn't consider removing it just to flush, instead I would limit the application to just around the opening.

    ex-Gooserider
    T-5 ASIA-B para, currently working on building own power chair, as being in a manual is an EXTRA handicap.

  7. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by melliska View Post
    I'm finally going to jump in and order some Microcyn or Vetericyn. Is everyone just using the Vetericyn (rather than the Microcyn) and are the ingredients in both products exactly the same? We are a little nervous about using it in the bladder (especially if it is the Vetericyn animal version) unless the ingredients are the same in both versions.

    After reading through most of this giant thread, I did still have a few more questions.
    1. Do any of the women that use this need to rinse their urethra to get the full benefit?
    2. If you rinse the urethra is it important to get the Microcyn/ Vetericyn back out, or is such a small amount that it wouldn’t cause any adverse reactions?
    3. When using it to clean the skin outside the urethra, is it ok to put the Microcyn/Vetericyn on a piece of sterile gauze to wipe the area?
    4. Has anyone tried to dip a catheter in it after the catheter is already lubricated with something (for people that don’t use hydrophilic catheters) or do I need to get the gel version of Microcyn to use instead of regular lubricant?

    I want to make sure I have all my bases covered because I am on my 6th infection in a row with the same bacteria and I really want to get rid of it everywhere it could be lurking. I have asked before but I still haven’t found anyone who has tried to rinse the inside of the Mitrofanoff/appendix conduit with either Microcyn or Vetericyn, but I think I am going to try it.

    Thanks for the help with my current and previous questions on this topic. Melissa
    I think most of us use Vetericyn or Vetericyn VF.
    Ingredients:
    *Vetericyn: Electrolyzed Water (H2OSodium Chloride (NaCISodium Hypochlorite (NaOCI& Hypochlorous Acid (HOCI)(0.003%)
    *Vetericyn VF: (VF = Veterinary Formula) is double to potency of Vetericyn consumer formula. Supposedly this formulation is only available with a veterinarian license, but many of us buy it direct from pet supply internet sites.
    *Microcyn OTC/Puracyn OTC/Dermacyn: (Microcyn has been renamed Puracyn OTC in the United States and Dermacyn is the name of the same product in markets outside of the United States) Electrolyzed Water (99.97%), Sodium Chloride (NaCl) 0.023% and preservatives, Sodium Hypochlorite (NaOCl) 0.004%, and Hypochlorous Acid (HOCl) 0.003%.

    The formulations are the same, all based on the Microcyn Technology Platform by Oculus Innovative Sciences. Among those of us who use this product, I believe there is little hesitation to use Vetericyn or Vetericyn VF in humans.

    I can't address your questions about techniques for female urinary tracts or the Mitrofanoff.

    I see no problem with using gauze (sterile or not) moistened with Vetericyn to clean the skin outside the urethra. Most of us reuse the syringes (don't use a sterile one with each instillation) we use to instill Vetericyn. The Vetericyn will deal with the bacteria in the non sterile supplies and materials we use.

    I have read of the technique of dipping hydrophilic catheters into Vetericyn to moisten them and activate the lubricant. I have also read of the technique of using Vetericyn gel to lubricate non hydrophilic catheters. Information about both techniques indicate either works well.

    Will you be taking antibiotics concurrently with using Vetericyn? When you have a particularly stubborn infection, many of us have taken the antibiotic and about mid way through the course started Vetericyn. In this case, I recall reading that many users start with 60cc instilled in the bladder once or twice a day and retained for 20-30 minutes. However there is also a case to be made that one needs to start instilling a small amount of Vetericyn (20cc) and retaining it for 5 minutes and working up to larger amounts and longer retention. Be aware that some users have reported some bowel disturbance and have found that starting out small and building tolerance has been beneficial.

    Good luck,
    All the best,
    GJ

  8. #1078
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    Be aware that some of us are sensitive to the VVF, and have had to tone down to the regular Vetericyn.
    Don - Grad Student Emeritus
    T3 ASIA A 26 years post injury

  9. #1079
    Quote Originally Posted by Donno View Post
    Be aware that some of us are sensitive to the VVF, and have had to tone down to the regular Vetericyn.
    That's right, or cut it two parts to one part, i.e., Vetericyn VF 20cc and 10cc sterile saline.

    All the best,
    GJ

  10. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by ex-Gooserider View Post
    No idea on most of the questions, however the ingredients seem to be the same except there is a very small amount of one of the base ingredients extra in the VVF, nothing that would be at all harmful... Essentially the biggest differences is that the VVF is double strength, and both the plain V and the VVF have pictures of animals on the bottles instead of people, but cost a LOT less... I did have a doctor that said the standards for animal med production are not as strict as they are for people meds, but that she had no reason to believe the VVF wasn't safe...

    I suspect that there wouldn't be any issues to leaving VVF in the urethra, it doesn't seem to bother mine. Likewise, most people seem to spray the area when cleaning, but there doesn't seem to be any reason not to spray a gauze wipe instead (other than possibly "wasting" some of the stuff) - I know the VVF instructions on treating wounds say that soaking the dressing is OK.

    As far as dunking catheters, I haven't tried it, but in essence the VVF is mostly water, so it will probably tend to dissolve the lubricant. The reports I've seen on the gel is that it isn't all that thick, so I don't know how good it would be as a substitute for other lubes...

    I'm not up on the Mitranoff type setup, is it something that you use with an indwelling Foley cath, or is it more of a 'substitute urethra' that you do intermittent cathing through? If you are doing intermittent cathing, then presumably you can flush it the same way a guy does his urethra. If it is a Foley, I wouldn't consider removing it just to flush, instead I would limit the application to just around the opening.

    ex-Gooserider
    Thanks for your reply and information, ex-Gooserider. I am kind of nervous about trying this since there are really no exact directions and it seems to work differently for every person, plus the Vetericyn is technically for animals so it is all kind of intimidating.

    I’ll have to try just spraying it. We’re used to using benzalkonium chloride wipes before doing cares. I kind of figured that dunking the lubricated catheters in it wouldn’t work very well, but I was just trying to get around ordering both the liquid Vetericyn and the gel version for my experiment.

    The Mitrofanoff is basically like a second urethra you intermittent cath through from a tiny little stoma hidden in your belly button. I haven’t been using it since my infection problems started after my surgery so I haven’t been healthy and haven’t wanted to try it until I get these UTI’s under control. I’ve heard from several people here that it really has helped them, so I’m excited to see how it will help me once I can utilize it. It is made of the appendix so I feel like there are probably all kinds of bacteria hiding in there. I am going to try to figure out a good way to flush it all out just in case.

    Thanks for your help! Melissa
    Life is a lesson you learn when you're through.

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