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Thread: pca/maternity leave/not rehiring question...

  1. #11
    Senior Member Van Quad's Avatar
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    Don't feel bad. She didn't feel bad showing up late for work. You knew the break was coming and didn't fire her earlier. I'd move on without regret.

    Your case makes me wonder what would happen here in Canada. Employment Insurance covers maternity leave here. We might not be able to let an employee go so easily.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Van Quad View Post

    Your case makes me wonder what would happen here in Canada. Employment Insurance covers maternity leave here. We might not be able to let an employee go so easily.
    My guess is that you can't fire somebody who is collecting maternity benefits under EI. You would probably have to wait until she came back to work and then give her whatever the legally required notice was in that particular province. Or else pay out the required severance amount for that period in order to dismiss her immediately.


    At-will employment
    Canadian law does not recognize the concept of “at-will employment”. In Canada, employment is treated as a contractual relationship, whether or not the employee has signed a formal employment contract.
    Termination of employment
    Canadian legislation requires an employer to provide statutory notice of termination or notice pay and, in some jurisdictions, severance pay when terminating an employee. In addition, Canadian common law requires an employer to provide an employee with reasonable notice of termination or pay in lieu of reasonable notice, failing which a court will award damages based upon what the employee would have earned during the notice period. Statutory notice is generally one week per year of service to a maximum of eight weeks (unless group notice requirements apply), and statutory severance in Ontario is one week for every year of service to a maximum of 26 weeks for employees who have at least five years’ service. Reasonable notice at common law can vary depending upon the circumstances. One rule of thumb is one month per year of service with a minimum of three months and a maximum of 24 months.
    Employment contracts
    Since an employment contract is implied by law, some Canadian employers utilize employment contracts or signed back offer letters to address specific issues. For example, employers and employees can contract out of the reasonable notice of termination requirements by agreeing to notice and severance provisions in an employment contract.
    This is interesting....
    Handling employee terminations
    Canadian courts may penalize an employer that has not behaved fairly and candidly when terminating an employee. The courts can do so by increasing the notice period substantially (typically an additional three to nine months) and possibly by awarding punitive damages. Although reasonable notice is not required where an employer has cause to terminate an employee, cause is interpreted narrowly. If an employer alleges cause and the court does not agree, this would typically result in additional damages by way of an increased notice period.
    It seems that much of the stuff quoted above is slanted to work more in favour of the employee than the employer. Must be all that good ole Canadian socialism
    Last edited by orangejello; 02-18-2010 at 01:02 AM.

  3. #13
    you don't owe her, feisty. that's the bottom line. so it's up to you. personally, i'd say, sorry. she'll get another job and they might not be as nice as you.

  4. #14
    Apparently she wasn't doing a good job. You kept her on temporarily out of kindness. I don't see any obligation at all to keep her on any longer.

    I would suggest telling her, though, so she can make other plans.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Van Quad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangejello View Post
    My guess is that you can't fire somebody who is collecting maternity benefits under EI. You would probably have to wait until she came back to work and then give her whatever the legally required notice was in that particular province. Or else pay out the required severance amount for that period in order to dismiss her immediately.


    This is interesting....
    It seems that much of the stuff quoted above is slanted to work more in favour of the employee than the employer. Must be all that good ole Canadian socialism
    Our more compassionate society. Good old Canuckistan.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Van Quad View Post
    Our more compassionate society. Good old Canuckistan.
    I agree.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by orangejello View Post
    Wow. I admit I am a little gobsmacked that this is allowed. Companies like Walmart must just love it. Instead of giving somebody an owed raise, they can just fire them without cause.
    That's why there are unions. lol

    Seriously,I think home care would have it's own set of rules. If someone is coming into your home, doing personal care such as bathing, bowel care, dressing etc etc then no rules should apply. You should be able to hire and fire at will for no reason. These people are coming into your home. Many are at their mercy, at least while in bed. If I don't like someones care and want to dismiss them, I may not want to give them notice. Why should I put myself in a tense vulnerable situation for the next time they come over and I'm in bed while they know I'm looking else where. At the very least, they probably wouldn't show up and then you are stranded.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by cara_m View Post
    That's why there are unions. lol

    Seriously,I think home care would have it's own set of rules. If someone is coming into your home, doing personal care such as bathing, bowel care, dressing etc etc then no rules should apply. You should be able to hire and fire at will for no reason. These people are coming into your home. Many are at their mercy, at least while in bed. If I don't like someones care and want to dismiss them, I may not want to give them notice. Why should I put myself in a tense vulnerable situation for the next time they come over and I'm in bed while they know I'm looking else where. At the very least, they probably wouldn't show up and then you are stranded.
    But how many Americans work without the protection of a union though? I am guessing a substantial number. And usually they are the lowest paid and most vulnerable people in the workforce. Such as caregivers. I don't know how it is in the US, but in Canada Walmart specifically has taken punitive steps to prevent workers from unionizing in several provinces. But thankfully Canada doesn't allow at-will employment so at least non-unionized workers do at least have an element of protection not afforded to those who work in at-will states like California.

    To bring things back to topic to home care, personally I don't see at-will employment as good for either the caregiver or the person being cared for. It leaves both in a potentially very vulnerable situation. Your example of not liking somebody's care and wanting to dismiss them without notice is valid. However there is another side to that: what if the caregiver decides they don't want to work for you anymore and walks out without any notice, leaving you high and dry without anybody to do your care? It goes both ways. I have as much sympathy for caregivers who are treated unfairly as I do for those requiring care who must deal with problematic caregivers. In a situation where there is physical or other abuse, I think instant dismissal is required. No question about that. But I don't think not liking somebody's care is reason enough to boot them out on the street without adequate notice and/or compensation.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cara_m View Post
    That's why there are unions. lol

    Seriously,I think home care would have it's own set of rules. If someone is coming into your home, doing personal care such as bathing, bowel care, dressing etc etc then no rules should apply. You should be able to hire and fire at will for no reason. These people are coming into your home. Many are at their mercy, at least while in bed. If I don't like someones care and want to dismiss them, I may not want to give them notice. Why should I put myself in a tense vulnerable situation for the next time they come over and I'm in bed while they know I'm looking else where. At the very least, they probably wouldn't show up and then you are stranded.
    If no rules apply, and we treat employees who do personal care with such disregard, with no value and respect given to the work they do, their work - them, then how can we expect them to value and show regard for the work they do for us - our bodies, our care needs? Should employers expect to freely de-value workers while still expecting those employees to value their work? Treating workers with such little regard (maybe because they are doing low skilled work and expendable), only perpetuates the problem of an unskilled, low wage, unmotivated workforce with a high rate of turnover. This, in the end harms us, as employer and recipient of this workforce.

    I understand being and feeling vulnerable and not wanting a worker returning after having essentially given them notice of termination, but the worker should be made clearly aware of their obligations and conditions if they don't meet their responsibilities before it comes to this point. This can easily be a straightforward understanding and agreement (or signed contract) between you, so there's no need for a tense situation or discomfort to arise. This can also relieve you of some difficulty in knowing how to handle a situation when they come up, or even guilt, if things are spelled out from the get go. If you're not happy with a pca and don't discuss their performance with them, then how are they to know what the problem issues are and how to improve? If certain things are grounds for immediate termination, then I think it's important for those things to be made explicit when hiring. If you're not happy with a worker, but do not let them know and allow them to continue doing as they are, then you are basically telling them what your expectations are for the job, which is essentially as much as they are doing right then. So, even if they are shitty workers and we know they are not doing their job, if we, as THEIR EMPLOYER say nothing, then we are telling them that their shitty work is ON PAR with what we expect for the job and with our care needs.

  10. #20
    lol and crying here. Chick I just wrote a three paragraph response and timed out. Lost it all. Briefly, I agree with you on everything, but still had much to say. I shall return.lol

    p.s. how do I prevent to time out.

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