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Thread: Why test rats, when we should test primates?

  1. #11
    Another point is speed.

    Primate trials take longer than rodent trials (e.g., longer lifespan, slower metabolism, time for regeneration), so using primate models would prolong any potential cure.

    Using mice and rats means quicker, cheaper iterations. Quicker, cheaper iterations will more quickly lead to a cure. (e.g., 2012 vs. 2030)
    ...it's worse than we thought. it turns out the people at the white house are not secret muslims, they're nerds.

  2. #12
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    Yeah, seriously, we just need to go from rats to us.

    So, which of you monkeys wants to go first?

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthQuad View Post
    So, which of you monkeys wants to go first?
    Offer one with sound scientific reasoning and I'm in.
    ...it's worse than we thought. it turns out the people at the white house are not secret muslims, they're nerds.

  4. #14

    Wake up!

    From Kate @w2w(2011) -Jonathon Slotkin is the medical director at InVivo; he's on the television a lot talking about sci

    Yay, gives a plug for the live blog! Thanks.

    You're going to get the first public announcement of an excellent piece of news.

    We've just appointed Ed Wirth as our chief science officer. He's coming to us from Geron, where he'll be leading us into human clinical trials. We also have Reggie Edgerton from UC Irvine.

    We've submitted an IND to the fda 2 months ago.

    There are 2 parts to an sci -- the primary and the secondary injuries.

    Hall E springer J neuroprotection and acute spinal cord injury 2004

    There's a well known cellular inflammatory response in the days and weeks following injury. Lots of the people in this room have been working on a long list of potential treatments . . . here's the list

    OEG, stem and progenitor cells, inhibition of NOGO, growth factors, pharmacologic strategies, activity based strategies, macrophages, schwann cells, etc.

    This is an engineering problem, though. It's an engineering problem because there's a physical hole. It's a big leap to ask cells to do magic, to do a leap over a hole . . . we have an inhospitable biological environment. It's our belief that engineered biodegradable scaffolds might be able to do the job. Paper on this is published and free (Teng et al 2002)

    The scaffold had components made for both gray and white matter to attach to. That first formulation didn't work, but it led to some fantastic results.

    Showing a slide about GAP 43 immunocytochemistry, where they used the scaffold along with neural stem cells. That worked. Ah, showing a video of a poor brown sequard-lesioned rat trying to walk. Then another one doing much better, after treatment with scaffold + neural stem cells.

    Good slide showing paper after paper about polymer scaffolds, rising into a pile on the screen. I'll get the list from him later.

    Saying that primate studies must be reserved for only the very most promising of therapies and limited to thoracic hemi injuries. Courtine, edgerton in 207 published a paper about how experimentation in primates can expedite translation into humans.

    Lots of you know that everything seems to work in rats . . . but what will work in primates will be much more likely to work in humans. When I'm in the clinic, I always bring it down to one question. What would I want if it was my back?

    So.

    They did a study with biodegradable polymer scaffold at St. Kitt's biomedical research center involving African green monkeys. They publisshed the preliminary model pritchard slotkin langer 2010. They've done about 40 animals.

    Some controls, some scaffold alone, some scaffold plus growth factors, some injectable, drug-releasing scaffold. They did a wireless EMG application 4 weeks prior

    Okay . . .

    He's building up to something here.

    He's saying that treatment with methylprednisolone has been identified as involved in serious side effects, but we wanted to use it anyway because it does have good outcomes too.

    Reggie Edgerton's wireless EMG application allowed them to capture kinematic data about swing and stance pattern of animals before and after treatment and injury. The data you can capture is astonishing. The animals that got the injectible scaffolding are looking good. This is going to turn into something.

    okay, I have to clean this up a lot, but need to post it so I can get the panel discussion . .[/QUOTE]
    Donnie: Dr. Xiao, What are your thoughts on a cure/combination therapy for SCI's??
    CG Xiao: Donnie, I don't want to disappoint you, but I think it is impossible to restore the continuity of the cord or "bridge the gap" in the near future, let's say: 50 years. Dr Wise Young has been my most respected scientist in SCI. He has dedicated and contributed to SCI no other can match.

  5. #15
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    Nice Donnie

    Just want these treatments into trials very soon

  6. #16
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    I am sure I am probably going to get some flack for saying this, but personally speaking I do not want the cure to come at the cost of paralyzing primates for research. They think, they feel, they have emotions, and most of all, they can suffer the same as the rest of us. Too high an ethical price for me.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I am sure I am probably going to get some flack for saying this, but personally speaking I do not want the cure to come at the cost of paralyzing primates for research. They think, they feel, they have emotions, and most of all, they can suffer the same as the rest of us. Too high an ethical price for me.
    Add me to the flack line. My feelings are identical.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Foolish Old's Avatar
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    Why maim and study healthy primates when there are so many SCIed humans who are so eager to become test subjects that they pay small fortunes to mercenary quacks for fake treatments that improve nothing and provide no data?

    Besides, politicians are the test animal of the future. Politicians are more numerous than lab rats, the scientists don't have the same affection for the politicians as they do for the rats, and there are some things that rats will refuse to do for reasons of conscience.
    Foolish

    "We have met the enemy and he is us."-POGO.

    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."~Edgar Allan Poe

    "Dream big, you might never wake up!"- Snoop Dogg

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I am sure I am probably going to get some flack for saying this, but personally speaking I do not want the cure to come at the cost of paralyzing primates for research. They think, they feel, they have emotions, and most of all, they can suffer the same as the rest of us. Too high an ethical price for me.
    Don't rats, dogs, cats and pigs think, feel and suffer?
    Studies show that pigs are highly intelligent, perhaps as smart as primates. They demonstrate similar social behaviors.They just don't look as much like us as primates do.

    Moral relativism is a bitch.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    It is evident that monkeys are more similar to humans than rats are but that should not disguise the fact that at the fundamental, cell biology level, rats and humas are very, very similar.
    yes this, also using rats and mice is affordable, you can have a larger number of test subjects, and especially with cancer research and stem cell, and genetics, the more rapid lifespan of the rats and mice compared to primates. makes rats and mice better for research.

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