Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 91

Thread: Stem Cell Patient Praises Maverick Indian Doctor

  1. #61
    Senior Member shak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    british columbia
    Posts
    356
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric.S
    No offense Dr. Wise but its alot easier to say than to go through.
    Eric, my feelings are that Wise is fully aware of the suffering sci brings with it . i 'm sure its brought him to tears on too many occasions and its obvious that he has offered his big brain up to help bring an end to the suffering. we have a saying out here in the bc free ride community " there is no easy " and i belive that when a cat like doc Wise Young says a difficult thing like , treat your spinal cord not your emotions . its not an easy thing for him to say ,its just simply necessary. thats what i imagine anyway.

    peace.
    "ELE" ~ Jackie Moon

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by shak
    Eric, my feelings are that Wise is fully aware of the suffering sci brings with it . i 'm sure its brought him to tears on too many occasions and its obvious that he has offered his big brain up to help bring an end to the suffering. we have a saying out here in the bc free ride community " there is no easy " and i belive that when a cat like doc Wise Young says a difficult thing like , treat your spinal cord not your emotions . its not an easy thing for him to say ,its just simply necessary. thats what i imagine anyway.

    peace.
    shak, thanks.

    Eric, I don't claim to understand what being spinal-injured feels like although I think that I can understand what parents and spouses are feeling. In the last 25 years, I have witnessed many many people "take a chance" on some therapy because they couldn't stand it any more. In the 1980's, I went to Cottonwood, Alabama where Barbara Devine was working with dozens of young spinal-injured people, getting them to walk. In the 1990's, I watched dozens of Americans go to Russia to get fetal cell transplants, only return home disappointed. I have seen hundreds of Americans go to Hungyun Huang, dozens go to Beike in Shenzhen, and several people go to Geeta Shroff. To date, I have not seen anything that makes her better than them.

    In the absence of evidence, to pay $40,000 for a therapy because it is called embryonic stem cells is treating your emotions, not your spinal cord. I have been studying human embryonic stem cells and I don't think that I would inject these cells into myself if I had spinal cord injury. I definitely would not inject these cells into my son or daughter if they had spinal cord injury.

    Wise.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric.S
    No offense Dr. Wise but its alot easier to say than to go through.
    For the casual observer, probably so. However, Dr. Young is hardly that person. Dr. Young feels the pain of those paralyzed.

    The people who go for these 10 million to one, long shot treatments all have one thing in common, desperation. They let their desperation override their common sense. Substantial spinal cord regeneration will not take place until a procedure is developed with a verified therapeutic cell. These cells will need to be injected directly into the spinal cord. Until such a procedure comes along, save your money.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Young
    I have been studying human embryonic stem cells and I don't think that I would inject these cells into myself if I had spinal cord injury. I definitely would not inject these cells into my son or daughter if they had spinal cord injury.

    Wise.
    Even a gmp verified stable high purity hESC, differentiated for a therapeutic specific application?

  5. #65
    I respect Dr. Wise's work but for many sci is unbearable. in fact many with sci dont understand another's perspective. I'm sure there have been many suicides commited as a result of sci and at the same time i have seen those that look at sci as just a obsticle. so its obvious that many with sci have a hard time relating to others with sci which leads me to believe it has to be relatively difficult for someone able bodied to relate no matter the exposure to the community...

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by chasb
    For the casual observer, probably so. However, Dr. Young is hardly that person. Dr. Young feels the pain of those paralyzed.

    The people who go for these 10 million to one, long shot treatments all have one thing in common, desperation. They let their desperation override their common sense. Substantial spinal cord regeneration will not take place until a procedure is developed with a verified therapeutic cell. These cells will need to be injected directly into the spinal cord. Until such a procedure comes along, save your money.

    absolute statements like this really annoy me....

    Have you personally interviewed everyone that has went to therapies like this? what gives you such a vast knowledge of the reasons behind there actions?

    concerning the second part of your statement which is almost as rigid as the first, theres no therepy to show without a doubt real results so to act as if you know exactly what will and wont work or how it should be applied is just as foolish as anything else. we wont know what works until something does consistantly, thats all the proof we'll ever need.

  7. #67
    Senior Member SethO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    170
    I understand that it is a long shot and if I did not have a SCI I would have given the same advice, 40k would be all the money I have and the risk/reward is horrible, but I am in this situation and it did ruin almost every aspect of my life my job, my relationship, not being able to help people and even worse to need people to help me.

    I think that dr wise is giving the best advice he can but if I would do anything to fix my body period. I think there are times when people think about eating it because of what a sci does to your life, don't get me wrong there are people out there that have it far worse than I do but I think that everyone can say that.

    What I would like to know is if you HAD to try to fix your sci in the next year what would be your best option? What are the pros and cons of that option. I would gladly sign whatever I needed to for a doctor in the U.S. to help me with anything that they could from injections to surgery, maybe it would be like they say "if you think it works then it works" and if it didn't work? Well that doctor saved me from rolling the dice in a diffrent country that may not be as safe or willing to help others in my situation and maybe what I had done helped someone else in the future.

  8. #68
    Senior Member shak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    british columbia
    Posts
    356
    Quote Originally Posted by SethO
    I understand that it is a long shot and if I did not have a SCI I would have given the same advice, 40k would be all the money I have and the risk/reward is horrible, but I am in this situation and it did ruin almost every aspect of my life my job, my relationship, not being able to help people and even worse to need people to help me.

    I think that dr wise is giving the best advice he can but if I would do anything to fix my body period. I think there are times when people think about eating it because of what a sci does to your life, don't get me wrong there are people out there that have it far worse than I do but I think that everyone can say that.

    What I would like to know is if you HAD to try to fix your sci in the next year what would be your best option? What are the pros and cons of that option. I would gladly sign whatever I needed to for a doctor in the U.S. to help me with anything that they could from injections to surgery, maybe it would be like they say "if you think it works then it works" and if it didn't work? Well that doctor saved me from rolling the dice in a diffrent country that may not be as safe or willing to help others in my situation and maybe what I had done helped someone else in the future.
    sethO, whats your injury level ?
    "ELE" ~ Jackie Moon

  9. #69
    Senior Member SethO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    170
    I have a t8 complete right now, motorcycle accident in september shot a chunk of bone that cut about 60% of my spinal cord. I seemed to have some muscle use right below my injury line but I can't feel it. Got one of those glider standing frames about a month ago and put about 2 hours a day on it now. Using that seems to make my legs move but I can move them, they seem to contract more I have been told that until you can move something on your own it does not matter it they move.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by SethO
    I understand that it is a long shot and if I did not have a SCI I would have given the same advice, 40k would be all the money I have and the risk/reward is horrible, but I am in this situation and it did ruin almost every aspect of my life my job, my relationship, not being able to help people and even worse to need people to help me.

    I think that dr wise is giving the best advice he can but if I would do anything to fix my body period. I think there are times when people think about eating it because of what a sci does to your life, don't get me wrong there are people out there that have it far worse than I do but I think that everyone can say that.

    What I would like to know is if you HAD to try to fix your sci in the next year what would be your best option? What are the pros and cons of that option. I would gladly sign whatever I needed to for a doctor in the U.S. to help me with anything that they could from injections to surgery, maybe it would be like they say "if you think it works then it works" and if it didn't work? Well that doctor saved me from rolling the dice in a diffrent country that may not be as safe or willing to help others in my situation and maybe what I had done helped someone else in the future.
    SethO,

    What I have noticed is that many people with spinal cord injury reach a point where they can't stand it any longer. They feel as if they must do something about their spinal cord injury. That is often when they comb the internet and I get emails from people asking, "What is the best treatment?" They want to do something, anything. They can't wait any more. When I write back saying here are the pros and cons of the treatment, some tell me to skip the cons part... One person in fact said to me that he didn't listen to any of my cautionary statements because he was afraid that it might discourage him from going. That is what I was referring to earlier as "treating your emotions" instead of treating your spinal cord.

    Many clinics have sprung up around the world, seeking desperate people for their treatments. These clinics share several characteristics in common. First, they focus on desperate people. Second, they charge about the price of a volkswagon (or a similarly moderately priced car) for the treatment. Third, they all claim that the treatment is completely safe. Fourth, they offer anecodotal (stories from individuals) evidence that the treatment is effective. Fifth, they have never published their results in any peer-reviewed scientific/medical journal, even in their own country. If a clinic fulfils all or most of these characteristics, I would avoid them.

    There is no such thing as a completely safe therapy, unless it does nothing. Many of the so-called stem cell therapies that these clinics are offering may be immune-rejected by the body and do nothing. Because the therapy does nothing, it is safe. For example, this is likely to be true of most fetal cell transplants which are not HLA-matched and are very likely to be either immune-rejected or do not do very much after transplantation. This accounts for the substantial safety record of fetal cell transplants around the world. They are very likely to be immune-rejected.

    Bearing the above in mind, let me answer your question and try to provide some criteria for participation in experimental therapies. In my opinion, one must evaluate experimental therapies in terms of risk versus benefit. Obviously, if a therapy presents no risk, the benefit does not have to be great for you to try it. For example, walking poses low risks of morbidity and mortality and has some potential benefits and restores walking to as many as 70% of people with incomplete spinal cord injury. Therefore, this treatment is a no-brainer. It is something that can and should be done, particularly if you are an "incomplete".

    The question is complicated by cost. Although doctors are not supposed to charge for experimental therapies, this is common practice particularly overseas in China and India. Doctors and companies are claiming that certain therapies are safe and efficacious, charging significant amounts for the treatment. In my opinion, most of the places that have charge for experimental therapies don't have sufficient data to establish safety or efficacy of the therapies. On the other hand, the problem is who decides that a treatment is safe and effective. The U.S. FDA requires a lot of data that has to be collected in a particular fashion. U.S. doctors are quite conservative about therapies and usually have a negative "not-invented-here" attitude or don't know much about therapies overseas.

    So, if a place is charging for an therapy that is not accepted in the United States as safe or efficaceous, how do you decide whether this is something that you want? Well, there are several additional criteria that you should consider.
    • What is the experience of the doctor? In the area of spinal cord injury, this is easy to ascertain. I would recommend against going to a doctor who has not been trained to treat spinal cord injury before. Many places who are offering therapies for spinal cord injury involve doctors who are not knowledgeable about spinal cord injury. This is particularly true of clinics that are offering a treatment that they claim to cure multiple conditions.
    • What is the evidence for risk and benefit? The best evidence is of course if the group has published an article in a respected peer-reviewed journal. This means that other doctors have evaluated the evidence and deemed the work good enough for their colleagues to read. Sometimes there is pre-publication data. However, if the group has had years to publish but has not, be suspicious.
    • What is the rationale for the therapy? A therapy should have credible rationale. There are healers who claim to be able to reach inside your body and fix your spinal cord with their hands. This is of course a rationale but not particularly credible. Then, there are therapies that do not even have any rationale. For example, why should stem cells "know" where to go and how to fix your spinal cord. After all, you have many stem cells in your body already and they don't know how to repair your spinal cord.

    Avoid clinics that do not provide credible experience, evidence of safety and efficacy, and therapeutic rationale. Be very suspicious when somebody is doing something in overseas clinics where they are not regulated. So, for example, when somebody is doing a treatment in Mexico or the Caribbean, ir usually means that the treatment does not meet any of the above criteria and therefore is questionable.

    Finally, here are several characteristics of therapies what I believe are necessary for restoring function in spinal cord injury. In order to regenerate the spinal cord, the therapy has to overcome at least one of three known obstacles to regeneration, i.e. bridging the injury site with material or cells that are more conducive to axonal growth, prolonged growth factor support of axonal growth, and blocking axonal growth inhibitors. Certain therapies may be beneficial in one or two of these categories. For example, stem cells can bridge the injury site and provide growth factors. On the other hand, I am skeptical that intravenously or intramuscularly administered stem cells will get to and into the spinal cord.

    I hope the above is helpful. I would be glad to answer any questions that you might have.

    Wise.

Similar Threads

  1. A rebuttal to a stem cell research opponent in New Jersey
    By Wise Young in forum Funding, Legislation, & Advocacy
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-26-2006, 04:22 PM
  2. Advances put pressure on Bush
    By antiquity in forum Cure
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-06-2003, 04:38 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-09-2002, 04:47 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-18-2002, 12:20 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-26-2002, 06:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •