MRIs-Am I hallucinating in what I see?

[Lee555]

Okay, attached here (I hope) are two MRI pictures of what is supposed to be of the left brachial plexus. Yeah well, let's just say the whole upper body instead. As the picture shows here, the left side of the picture is actually the right side of the body.

So in looking at the 'right' side, does it appear as different than the other side to you folks as it does to me? I know, terrible detail in this, actually hardly any at all, but a doctor was supposed to be able to look at the nerves going down the neck etc., to see if there was anything compressing the plexus.

I'm open to any comment.

[firesmurf]

just curious,do they have any other more in depth views of this area other than the 'big' pictures?i really don't know just how they realistically expected to even see down to the actual nerve level this far out,you know what i mean?from what i am used to seeing in my,like 12?c spine and upper back MRIs,these just don't seem close enough to do that job.they needed to actually 'get into' that specific area with more slice type pics in order to really get the best view,or that would be what i would think anyways.JMO.sorry,cannot help you with this,maybe someone else has a much clearer understanding of the 'overview' pics?Marcia

[Lee555]

just curious,do they have any other more in depth views of this area other than the 'big' pictures?i really don't know just how they realistically expected to even see down to the actual nerve level this far out,you know what i mean?from what i am used to seeing in my,like 12?c spine and upper back MRIs,these just don't seem close enough to do that job.they needed to actually 'get into' that specific area with more slice type pics in order to really get the best view,or that would be what i would think anyways.JMO.sorry,cannot help you with this,maybe someone else has a much clearer understanding of the 'overview' pics?Marcia

Well I am glad someone other than myself have a problem with this MRI series. And no, there is no other in depth view of the Brachial area. And, you're totally right, can't hardly see a thing in these. You can just define that there is a difference between the left and right. You know the 'map' that is shown with the lines on it showing the levels of each slice? Well this is a complete sheet and a huge picture.

[SCIFighter]

Well, it depnds on the machine/quality. I know, the NS, was sent all my recent scans since I last seen him. I had them done locally. His response, crap, could not verify/ruleout/determine anything. My scans, you can also see a HUGE difference in ones from here and ones I had up there. Hope someone can offer you, something more

[firesmurf]

Hopefully Dr wise can say something about these.i just don't see how they can really see what needs to be seen with ONLY these pics,ya know?what type of doc referred you for this?marcia

[Lee555]

Hopefully Dr wise can say something about these.i just don't see how they can really see what needs to be seen with ONLY these pics,ya know?what type of doc referred you for this?marcia

It was a neurologist. And you know, these guys hardly ever actually look at the scans. They rely on someone else to determine any damage. Perhaps some do, but this one didn't.

[firesmurf]

i really do think you need to actually seek out the opinion of a good knowledgable neurosurgeon rather than just a simple neurologist.i have had to see plenty of both types of specialists over the years due to other problems completly unrelated to my SCI,and know just from my personal experience,a neurologist just cannot even compare with the overall working knowledge and understanding of the inner workings of the spinal cord and brain and other nerve connections like a good neurosurgeon can.they just do not actually go into these areas routinely like a neurosurgeon does.i just really think you would benefit much more from the overall knowledge of haveing a neurosurgeon to consult with Vs just a neurologist.a neurosurgeon never really looks much at the actual rad reports but prefer to do their very own reads based on what they see.they do know much more than the rads do,just comes with the territory in given what they do for a living ya know?every single neurosurgeon i have ever seen will maybe glance at a report but usually will go right to the hard films for their eval.

i just know that given the level of damage i now have and all the complications that come along for the ride with this stuff,i feel much better knowing i have a good neurosurgeon consulting on my case vs the neuologist i had been seeing just for my migrane headaches.tho my neurologist was really a great one,i wouldn't have relied on his knowledge of spinal cord injury like i do that of a neurosurgeon.i just really do think you need this level of expertise and knowledge.JMO,marcia

[TokenGimp]

As long as you weren't hoping the first picture wasn't the pelvis. :o

[TokenGimp]

Firesmurf has good suggestions. I recently found a new Physiatrist that after 25 years is getting me back in shape. Last Monday I had MRI, Nukemed stuff for Bone scan and a bunch of x-rays. already had catscan and other previous MRI's.
I fractured both femurs last year in separate incidents with continued issues. I'm a t-4 para that's had more broken bones than most. I've been hit three times by cars while in my chairs either racing or street, and more car crashes than I can count. Having specialists for SCI issues should include a good Urologist, Neurologist and or Physiatrist to go with your general practitioner.

[dejerine]

Lee,
Although I can't see the nerves, it is really cool you posted the MRI. Please explain how you upload pictures onto a posting at this site. Even more amazing, how did you scan the MRI. Aren't they a transparency or did someone give you a hard copy/CD. I thought a special program was necessary to read MRI cds???

I am not knowledgeable, but from bits and pieces, I guess they are worried about a brachial plexus avulsion rather than a mere stretch, if they are relying on MRI. I always thought electrophysiologic testing and history/physical exam were used more than MRI to rule out brachial plexus injury, but what do I know. It seems they could see fractures or other injury suggestive of brachial plexus injury, but unless there was some avulsion with accompanying injury to surrounding structures, I don't know how MRI could detect stretching. However, I have no experience in this area.

Brachial plexus injury is peripheral nerve injury, not central, as the terminology goes.

I am sorry you are having these problems. Brachial plexus can cause very severe pain, and of course result in loss of function. So much sadness to contemplate and so much need to find ways to regenerate nerves.

Yahoo is filled with every nuance of space or grad student idea on the Big Bang. Yet the mystery of the chemical workings of man hold no such grandeur for the media. They take for granted the workings of the human body. Wish pain research had even a small portion of the vast fortunes of NASA. NASA just sent a 35 ton framing member up to the space station, our Edsel of space. What do they intend to do on the space station once they get all the debris in place, except hope it doesn't kill someone when it comes back down. Aren't we supposed to be going BACK to the moon to prove we are still equal with the Chinese, Singaporeans, Indians, Japanese, Russians, French, Itialians etc. etc. And then to MARS, to the Universe and beyond--oh wait, that is Buzz LIghtyear. Just as Harry Potter sold big, and Hannah Montana tickets go for three thousand to scalpers because KIDS drive the market, NASA is big because kids dig it.

As to science, we get as much science from the papparazzi watching Britney Spears as we do from the space station. Pardon the pun, but what EARTHLY good is the space station? So far it is merely symbolic and a waste of money. At least if we believe the National Science Foundation, but then, what do they know next to grade school children?

Maybe we could promote world peace by building a monstrosity gymnasium and having astronauts from every country play space basketball. Sound silly--NASA already spent millions for that exact purpose, so see if an astronaut could put a ball through a hoop. Even designed a special camera to record the movement of the basketball. How about an international space golf course--without gravity, it would have to be REALLY BIG, but that is no problem for NASA. Or maybe, just maybe, we could have a look at the brain.

I wish the physicists and imaging/graphics experts at NASA would be allocated to imaging molecules, rather than concocting theories while they sit at the Keck telescope in Hawaii before they head to the beach. That is just so much nicer than sitting in the stinky mouse labs found at any medical school. Just my take on what actually matters. A good TV show provides more entertainment than NASA, and as to the space station, what other good is it. Grinding my axe, wishing I could stand on a soapbox.

[Lee555]

Lee,
Although I can't see the nerves, it is really cool you posted the MRI. Please explain how you upload pictures onto a posting at this site. Even more amazing, how did you scan the MRI. Aren't they a transparency or did someone give you a hard copy/CD. I thought a special program was necessary to read MRI cds???

I am not knowledgeable, but from bits and pieces, I guess they are worried about a brachial plexus avulsion rather than a mere stretch, if they are relying on MRI. I always thought electrophysiologic testing and history/physical exam were used more than MRI to rule out brachial plexus injury, but what do I know. It seems they could see fractures or other injury suggestive of brachial plexus injury, but unless there was some avulsion with accompanying injury to surrounding structures, I don't know how MRI could detect stretching. However, I have no experience in this area.

Brachial plexus injury is peripheral nerve injury, not central, as the terminology goes.

I am sorry you are having these problems. Brachial plexus can cause very severe pain, and of course result in loss of function. So much sadness to contemplate and so much need to find ways to regenerate nerves.


How did I do the pics? I had the actual films since this place didn't put it on a CD, and we have a lightbox here at home and so I took pictures of them with our digital camera. Then transfered the pictures to file on PC, resized them, loaded them into photobucket, and voila! The trick is getting the actual films because the hospitals here use a Kodak program which doesn't seem to be photo producing at all. And it doesn't want to work on the Vista program, XP only.

Well early on it was thought that it might be a brachial injury, because it was just the arm and shoulder having a problem, but the EMG showed little if any problem in that area. and then other things started to happen, and with the forehead and jaw problem, back muscles, leg and foot, well, I think we can figure something more is wrong. Get this, my PCP said to me this last week, "I don't understand why it is so important for you to find out what is wrong" Pretty amazing. I am going to try to limit contact with her at this point, she is too depressing. Mind you, she thinks I'm making this all happen by sheer will anyway. The problem is that the problems keep coming and to her it's 'Unnatural' so I must be faking it. Sheesh.

[Lee555]

i really do think you need to actually seek out the opinion of a good knowledgable neurosurgeon rather than just a simple neurologist.i just really do think you need this level of expertise and knowledge.JMO,marcia

Thank you Marcia, I was wondering about what sort of MD to search out at Barnes.

[Lee555]

Firesmurf has good suggestions. I recently found a new Physiatrist that after 25 years is getting me back in shape. Last Monday I had MRI, Nukemed stuff for Bone scan and a bunch of x-rays. already had catscan and other previous MRI's.
I fractured both femurs last year in separate incidents with continued issues. I'm a t-4 para that's had more broken bones than most. I've been hit three times by cars while in my chairs either racing or street, and more car crashes than I can count. Having specialists for SCI issues should include a good Urologist, Neurologist and or Physiatrist to go with your general practitioner.

Gee, you and cars seem to be at odds huh?

We have a new physiatrist in town but I really need to know the extent of damages before I see him. He works in the same place I had a problem with the other physiatrist there, and he is an A*SHOLE to the 10th degree. Had to do with my SI joints last year.

[Lee555]

Well I did figure out how to print the images of the MRI scans from the CD at least. It uses a lot of black of course, but depending on the quality of your printer, scanning the picture to file would also work. So if you are curious about your own, you might try asking the hospital for a copy, or your doctor. I got mine because I would be taking them to a different hospital.

[firesmurf]

Just an FYI here lee,but if my primary told me what yours did,i would be gone from that office in a heartbeat.this is what your primary SHOULD be concerned at trying to find out for you,not blowing you off just because they cannot actually find/understand the problem,ya know?wow.my primary ahs been a true lifesaver for me.when he knows something isn't right(usually when i explain my latest bizarre symptom du jour),he refers me to a person who just knows more than he does.this IS your primarys job just coordinating your ongoing care for you,not blowing off bizarre symptoms cuz they don't 'get it'.i think you need to seek out a new primary and a good neurosurgeon just to get his eval on your films.JMO,good luck lee,marcia

[Lee555]

Just an FYI here lee,but if my primary told me what yours did,i would be gone from that office in a heartbeat.this is what your primary SHOULD be concerned at trying to find out for you,not blowing you off just because they cannot actually find/understand the problem,ya know?wow.my primary ahs been a true lifesaver for me.when he knows something isn't right(usually when i explain my latest bizarre symptom du jour),he refers me to a person who just knows more than he does.this IS your primarys job just coordinating your ongoing care for you,not blowing off bizarre symptoms cuz they don't 'get it'.i think you need to seek out a new primary and a good neurosurgeon just to get his eval on your films.JMO,good luck lee,marcia

Yeah I know. Fortunately she did give me scripts to refill 2x. So I won't have to see her anytime in the near future. If I look for another one I am going to do as someone mentioned on the forum long time ago, and that's writing a letter, spelling out all my problems and then wait for someone to respond favorably and supportively. This would be my third primary you know in the space of a year, but you kinda wonder how she would feel if her kid got some exotic illness and the doctors were unconcerned like she is. I suppose she is more used to seeing mindless and frivolous females that have no clue how they found their way out of their house to her office. Sheesh. I see them all the time so she must too. She wanted to chock my problems up to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. From a rear-end accident. Maybe some other female, but not this one. She said it was psychological stress from the accident. I leaned forward, looked directly into her eyes and told her the only thing I was getting psychological stress from was how the doctors were treating me. Didn't flinch a muscle as I uttered this to her. I think she has pissed me off.