How can I rationalize this?

[Tufelhunden]

OK. First off, I am a rational person. Mathematics rules my life. I will be graduating first in my class in graduate school and I will be receiving my masters degree in monetary economics in June. I will then be attending UC Berkeley in the fall to do about one year of intensive mathematics before I begin studies toward receiving my PhD in Economics. With all that said...

My injury was caused by a motorcycle accident I should not have survived, let alone with paraplegia, since I pretty much head-butted a guardrail head on at about 45 mph which split my brand new helmet right off of my head. I fractured every single vertebrae in my neck and my back all the way down to T-10. I was compromised neurologically at T-4. OK, enough of that...

I didn't have enough room in my garage at home to store my bike, so I would leave it at my cousin's house in his garage, and whenever I would want to ride it, I would basically stop by his house and pick it up (I had a key to the house). About two months prior to my accident, I had the most horrific nightmare. By the way I have only had about three nightmares my whole life. In this nightmare, I was walking through my cousin's kitchen on the way to the garage. I was all by myself in the house, and it was pretty much normal. As I went to grab the doorknob to open the door, this overwhelming feeling of what I can only describe as what alien abductees probably feel before being, well, you know. It was a sinister vacuum which took over every aspect, every atomic element in my body. It sucked the air out of me, I tried to scream but nothing came out. Right before I felt like I was going to pass out and die, I woke up in my bed at home gasping for air and petrified. I pretty much looked at myself in the mirror and shook my head.

A couple of days later, I was cruising down the freeway with my girlfriend and we were talking about aliens (she has a phobia of alien abduction-long story), and I brought up the dream to her, but obviously at the time I didn't think much of it. She thought it was pretty creepy, and so did I, but like I said, we didn't think much of it.

Fastforward two months and I am laying in the hospital bed talking to her and she brings our previous conversation up, and I didn't know what to say. I am at a loss for words in trying to figure this one out. I do not believe in anything spiritual, only tangible, but lately I have been struggling and having a hard time trying to wrap my brain around this. The dream to me is far from coincidence, because reflecting back, the exact feeling I felt in the kitchen at my cousin's at that moment is the exact feeling I felt for about ten minutes straight after I awoke from my laminectomy. Not one of alien abduction, but of disoriented, helpless overwhelming paralysis.

I have not shared this insight with anyone except for the parties named, mainly me and her and now you guys. I know it's a longshot, but have any of you guys (I'd rather keep it to the rational, tangible, physics type individuals on this board) experienced something similar, and if so, how did you deal with it. I am not unstable and in need of talking to a professional, and I have never been on any anti-depressants, as I have pretty much accepted my injury for what it is, and I continue to recover bits and pieces (to my and neurologist's amazement- my legs have just began to itch, and it is no picnic), but I was hoping someone may have experienced the same thing and I would like to know their take on it.

By the way, I apologize for the rambling and un-organized nature of this post.

[Steven Edwards]

Tufelhunden,

I'm about to eat, but physics-wise... I'd argue that time is another dimension. Assuming the 10th dimension exists, which encapsulates all possible realities, the "dream" was just your mind peering into the specific timepoint when your injury occurred.

The extra-weirdness was contributed by portions of your lives in the other realities.

Best,

Steven

[alpentalic]

I've by now read plenty of stories of pre-injury premonition. Last spring, my business partner found a wheelchair out by the sidewalk, the ones the homeless walk off with from the hospital. He brought it back in the yard as a lawn chair to be funny. I have a good sense of humor, should have laughed about it. I cannot explain the dread it filled me with. I hated it around, called it a bad omen, carried on and eventually threw it away.

I'd also been guilty of living like I'd just die peacefully in sleep when I was old. An avid mountaineer, I figured if anything was going to happen, I'd fall and die. Consequently I was years between insurance. During the same time as the chair episode, insurance became a burning issue in my mind. I'd wake up in the middle of the night with it on my mind, I skipped the season closer at the ski slopes for the 1st time ever because of a bad feeling. Soon thereafter, I dropped in on a plan. Who would guess 3 months later I'd fracture my neck.

[hapahouli]

That is a pretty deep story. Has this happened to you before during something else tragic in your life?

I'm sure you got the "motorcycles aren't safe" lecture pre-injury...Maybe that had something to do with it? I've gotten that speech before.

If you're are psychic then you can join the Psychic Friends Network:D J/K

[Lindox]

I know you requested comments only from physics type minds..but here's another perspective.

Your subconscience was ALWAYS aware of the dangers related to motorcycle usage. Your conscience was NOT.

When the two collided you experienced the results.

This happens more then any of us are aware of I think..because we don't hold our subconscience as a viable source of information. THUS to get it's point across we have nightmares.

Is our subconscience always right? NO.
But like anything else it's right on somethings sometimes.

[Tufelhunden]

I know you requested comments only from physics type minds..but here's another perspective.

Your subconscience was ALWAYS aware of the dangers related to motorcycle usage. Your conscience was NOT.

When the two collided you experienced the results.

This happens more then any of us are aware of I think..because we don't hold our subconscience as a viable source of information. THUS to get it's point across we have nightmares.

Is our subconscience always right? NO.
But like anything else it's right on somethings sometimes.

Interesting. I have always pictured our subconscience as our "tape recorder", something like those old reel-to-reels. Me and my friends always had a joke about people we always thought were off, or crazy- we'd say their tape recorder has taped some pretty messed-up stuff. You see, the tape recorder is always taping, it doesn't stop until you die. To me, your conscience is just a manifestation of a D.J. looking through the reel-to-reel. Anyways, I always knew there was a danger. I even calculated that there was a 12% chance of me hurting myself bad, or even killing myself, which I thought were odds I could live with. Well, I happened to be in that 12%. I don't think I made any effort to bury this in my subconscience, but maybe I did this autonomously.

My whole deal with this is the timing. I can't help but think it is not coincidence.

[Wise Young]

Whoa, let me make sure that the correct words are being used. Conscience is about the part of the brain that causes us to feel shame or embarassment if we behave in ways that do not fit some taught norm. I didn't know that there is a subconscience.

Conscious refers to the state of being aware. Subconscious is a term that refers to behaviors or motivations that one is not conscious of. I assume that the discussion is about conscious and subconscious.

Wise.

[Tufelhunden]

Sorry, Dr. Young, I think I let my subconcious spell for me, no pun intended.

[darkeyed_daisy]

My senior year in high school, I kept having recurring dreams that I couldnt feel/move my feet. I would wake up and immediately try to move them to make sure I was only dreaming. Fast forward to just shy of my 21st birthday and I cant feel/move my feet due to my T12 SCI.

I do believe in bad feelings. For example, I have passed people in stores before and got an immediate really bad not ignorable feeling. I believe there is a reason for this. This has only happened three times in my life but I pay attention to the feelings.

[Kendell]

The night my sister died, I woke up at around 3:30 out of a "dream". It wasn't a normal dream. I felt an overwhelming sense of fear and I knew it centered around my sister, but there were no visual images. I found out she had died around the same time I had this dream.

The day Debbie went in for what was supposed to be a routine procedure that resulted in serious malpractice causing her to need several surgeries and nearly taking her life, I had enormously bad feelings about her going in. I was wide awake, but it felt like someone was screaming in my head not to let her go. I put it down to heebie jeebies and ignored it.

Rational explanation? I don't have one, but I would suggest that there are a tremendous amount of unknowns pertaining to the human mind and all the ways it could function that we don't know squat about so maybe you can put it down to that.

Me? I'm not that rational and have my own ideas. :) One thing I know for sure... When something like that happens to me now, I don't ignore it.

[LaMemChose]

Whether you wish to call it premonition, intuitive thought or something different in the realm of physics, I've experienced it, too. Twice.

The first was before my Dad was seriously burned in an industrial explosion in 1979. I had a wicked bad dream about him falling into a swimming pool, being electrocuted. Instead, he was knocked into a pool of molten metal when the furnace at his smelting plant gave way and blew, when the molten chromium hit water.

The second was just prior to SCI. I awakened numerous times over multiple nights feeling I needed to "protect" my neck, not move or turn it or I'd be in "trouble." Never understood why that was a recurring "theme" of the transition from sleep to being awake, but it was. Had a sense of impending doom, but couldn't place it. THat was in '93.

The rest is history.

::shrug::

[Lindox]

Whoa, let me make sure that the correct words are being used. Conscience is about the part of the brain that causes us to feel shame or embarassment if we behave in ways that do not fit some taught norm. I didn't know that there is a subconscience.

Conscious refers to the state of being aware. Subconscious is a term that refers to behaviors or motivations that one is not conscious of. I assume that the discussion is about conscious and subconscious.

Wise.

Thank you Professor. You are correct (as usual).
Lesson learned and I will accept my grade of DUH.

BTW, isn't conscience the angel on one shoulder and subconscience the little devil on the other?

[Sue Pendleton]

Reading your bio I'd agree with Lindox, LaMem and Steven with clarification by Wise. Former Marine, boxer and motorcyclist? I'd say you've read the white light and body rising above itself and incorporated that into your psyche. Maybe a linguist to boot and that's the tape recorder joke? LaMem I have had months where I live in the land of deja vu and premonitions. Actually I think more precognitive the scenes in my head were so clear.

[mr_coffee]

I think we all connect our injury to some moment pre-sci where you regret or you think, wow that was weird... If it manifests in your brain enough you'll find anything to connect.

For instance, I saw a kid in a powerchair at my school. My initial thought in my head was, I wonder if he can feel his penis. My second thought was, wow i'm glad I can feel mine and I can walk. I wonder if he hates us that we walk and take it for granted.

After that I said, wow, you know because we are Software Engineers even if we get paralzyed we can still do our job, i bet most can't do that haha.

The kid who I told that too was the kid who paralzyed me 2 months later by wrecking my car. He insisted we go out for a joy ride after I told him at least 10 times no. When I handed him my car keys, I told him, whatever you do, DO NOT WRECK MY CAR, he said i'm a good driver. He walked away with minor scratches.

Also when we stopped off for gas, about 10 mins before he flipped the car over... out of the blue I put my seat belt on. I NEVER put my seat belt on, only this one time, had no idea why but it happened.

[NorthQuad]

I will get back to your thread, Tufelhunden. This may be a long one for me.

[cljanney]

Tufelhunden,

I've always chalked up coincidences, to just that, coincidence. But my accident had some that have made me look differently towards their possibility.

My injury is the result of a motorcycle crash as well.

I was going out to meet some friends for a birthday party and a night out, which would end up with me spending the night over at my buddies place. I would've taken my car, as I always did at night, but it was in the shop because I blew the engine racing to the airport to get my then girlfriend off to her grandmothers funeral in New Zealand who had just passed away on my birthday while we were out of town celebrating (which happened about a month earlier, I'll comeback to this later).

Anyway, I pull my bike out of the garage and head down the street. While passing through a tunnel for a freeway overpass, I notice that the exit side is drenched from an onslaught of rain (I live in Los Angeles, where you can usually count the days it rains on one or two hands). I think, 'wow that's wild' and inch out into the rain only to back up and head back to my house. There was no rain on the other side of that tunnel, where I had originally come from. I decided not to go out and stay home as it was already after dark and fresh rain on LA streets on a Saturday night spells out nothing but danger (all the oil from months previous on the pavement will rise from the fresh rain and create super slick roads).

So I'm home, I crack a beer and call my buddy, telling him I'm staying in. I put a fire on and listen to the rain as it passes over my roof and am kinda happy to be where I'm at. I go outside to have a smoke under my deck umbrella, and as soon as I light up the rain stops, and I think... 'hmmm, birthday party, or me alone for the night'. So I call my buddy, get back on my bike and I don't make it a 100 yards till the rain comes back with vengeance. I swing back round and race for my garage.

I call my buddy back up and telling him I'm back home to let him down again. Well this time I'm home for ten minutes and the rains stop and I look out and can see stars off in the distance in the direction I'm wanting to head. So I'm off for time number 3 and I get about a 1/2 mile out when it hits again hard, so I turn around, stop in that freeway overpass tunnel to call my buddy and tell him I'm heading home again. He tells me "WTF, looks like the gods don't want you out tonight, pal" and I laugh and head back.

Well I get home and try and relax into some movie playing on the TV, and sure enough as soon as I get comfortable the rain stops again. I think to myself, "nope, I'm staying right here". But after half an hour, the silence of no rain is killing me, and sure enough I call my buddy, mount back up on my bike, and head out for hell or high water.

The night goes well, see some old friends and make some new ones, we all have a good time of it. Right before I'm about to crash out for the night at my buddies beach house, I take up my cell phone and call my girlfriend, who is back in town from New Zealand and having a night out with the girls. She doesn't answer, which is odd, because she always always picks up, in part because her mom and her always gab for hours on end everyday, anytime of the day. Well, she doesn't answer the next dozen times I try calling as well. So at about 5 in the morning I give up and pass out.

Next morning I wake up groggy and ready for food. My buddies and I go to the local breakfast shack and fill up. It's about 2 in the afternoon when I've got to head back for a rehearsal of a play I'm doing, so I gear up and get on my way back towards Hollywood where I live. I'm heading away from the beach were my buddy lived, passing by LAX (Los Angeles Airport) and am to entering the 110 freeway that runs just south of LAX. I am getting onto the onramp, which becomes elevated (the freeway itself stands at about 100 ft. or more above the ground), and just before I merge on to the freeway with the rest of the traffic, I look over my left shoulder to see if anyone is coming onto the merging lane. The traffic is clear, as I turn my head to look back I notice an Air New Zealand plane taking off, up into the air ( I am always amazed how some metal beast, weighing tons upon tons, can possibly defy gravity).

My last memory was looking ahead, seeing a slight S curve in the onramp entrance, and thinking about making the necessary adjustment for that turn.

Turns out that I went straight, hit the retaining wall (which stands at about 2 1/2 - 3 feet, which is lower than the majority of my body while sitting on my motorcycle). Witness said I never turned, only went straight, and was thrown over the retaining wall, towards a 100 ft. drop, catching a freeway lamppost with my neck and shoulder, and was spun back onto the freeway. I don't remember any of this, but was told I never lost consciousness and was trying to stand and take my helmet off.

I never considered any of these things until I was out of the hospital, over a month later, and my girlfriend split shortly after I had revealed that last memory of mine (found out a year later that she was bedding with mutual "friend" that night). I never really considered anything coincidental or odd until my friend reminded me that I had turned back to go home that night 3 times. I still don't know what to make of it, but I do know that nothing like that has ever happened before in the past, and will be sure that it never happens again in the future. If I get turned around two times, that'll be enough, I don't have to head out 4 times before I need a wake up call.

Some of it I believe is just strange coincidence, but the rain stopping me and turning me back definitely "feels" different than coincidence. The x-girlfriend part with the grandmother's death on my birthday, car dying because of it, and the seeing the Air New Zealand plane before I crashed only seemed like avenues of coincidence to hold onto anger and blame. Useless to me in the end. I don't know, if I could "rationalize" a value for it, then maybe it's all part of some bigger puzzle. Who knows.


Chris





PS There is a very interesting book about Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), titled The Spirit Molecule (http://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0725315-4549662?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178664680&sr=1-1), about the hallucinogenic which is released from the brain's pineal gland. It is thought to be the reason for out of body death experiences, alien abductions, and possibly dreams as well. It's about as close as I can come up with for any "logical" explanation for your experience. I was turned on to it by listening to an interview with Joe Rogan, the comedian and reality TV show host for Fear Factor. He takes the stuff and is an advocate of it.


Joe Rogan interview about DMT link (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/18/joe_rogan_rants_on_t.html) or direct link to mp3 (http://boingboing.net/images/Joe_Rogan-DMT.mp3)

Wikipedia on DMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine)

[alan]

The day of my injury, I felt something bad was going to happen, but my ESP was a bit off. We had to drive across bridges to get to my cousin's house on the river in Annapolis, and for some reason I felt we'd end up in the water, so I was mentally preparing how I'd get everyone (four of us) out of my 200SX as it was sinking. Well, the car never went off a bridge, but water did get me - I hit the unidentified floating object once we got there.

Irony factor - I was not usually a beer drinker, so I didn't drink any beer when we got there. Had I drank some, I wouldn't have gone swimming right after. I may be the only person who became a quad because he was sober!

[Tufelhunden]

Wow, I got more responses in this thread than I thought!

My main concern was in relation to what I can only call a vision. I have dreamt before, but I, like many forget the dream like 2 hours into my day. There are only three dreams I have remembered (every second of them), and all were nightmares, of which one was what I can only describe as this vision I have been boring you guys with. I do share some of the many posters' sentiments, but I have to admit that I believe my situation was a little different. I am not concerned as much as the events of the day leading up to my accident, such as my girlfriend calling me to say she was waiting to meet me at my cousins, which is why I left at that moment which coincidentally placed me at the right place at the right time. It was simply the whole process of having this dream and it having enough of an impact on me for me to remember it enough to share with my girlfriend in the car like a week after (prior to me even thinking about anything to do with paralysis) I had it, and then for me to be placed at that right moment, that exact moment. By the way, the guardrail which I collided with is part of an on-ramp which I took practically every single time I rode my motorcycle; something was just different that day.

I appreciate you guys listening to me.

[antiquity]

Even creepier is that people tend to die within 2 weeks before or after the day they were born. It's like some window to the other side opens up during that period. The same window we enter through to life is the same window we'll exit through to death. Many non western cultures harbor superstitions about birthdays and protective amulets are worn around that time. It's considered a very vulnerable period.

I was hit by a drunk driver exactly 1 week after my 8th birthday.

Most of our accidents would have killed us if not for medical advances.

[Wise Young]

Even creepier is that people tend to die within 2 weeks before or after the day they were born. It's like some window to the other side opens up during that period. The same window we enter through to life is the same window we'll exit through to death. Many non western cultures harbor superstitions about birthdays and protective amulets are worn around that time. It's considered a very vulnerable period.

I was hit by a drunk driver exactly 1 week after my 8th birthday.

Most of our accidents would have killed us if not for medical advances.

Antiquity,

I can't find any statistics to back up the following belief but I believe that people can choose when they die. A person can literally hang on to life for days or months if they really want to live. A person that gives up will often die. These are just my observations of people that I have taken care of in hospitals. A study in the 1980's showed that there is a dip in death rates just before Christmas and a signficant death surge shortly after (Source (http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ329251&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=EJ329251)).

Click on any of the links below to perform a new search
ERIC #: EJ329251
Title: Variations in Death Rates in the Proximity of Christmas: An Opponent Process Interpretation.
Authors: Harrison, Albert A.; Kroll, Neal E.
Descriptors: Death; Motivation; Predictor Variables; Social Influences
Source: Omega: Journal of Death and Dying, v16 n3 p181-92 1985-86
Peer-Reviewed: N/A
Publisher: N/A
Publication Date: 1986-00-00
Pages: N/A
Pub Types: Journal Articles; Reports - Research
Abstract: Examined obituaries published in metropolitan newspaper during the 8 weeks centering on Christmans. Results showed significant death dip immediately prior to Christmas and significant death surge immediately thereafter. Second study on actual death dates of eminent Americans, yielded the same general pattern of results and revealed that post-Christmas upswing was significant only for people older than sample's median age. (Author/NRB)

Wise.

[mimin]

Even creepier is that people tend to die within 2 weeks before or after the day they were born. It's like some window to the other side opens up during that period. The same window we enter through to life is the same window we'll exit through to death. Many non western cultures harbor superstitions about birthdays and protective amulets are worn around that time. It's considered a very vulnerable period.

I was hit by a drunk driver exactly 1 week after my 8th birthday.

Most of our accidents would have killed us if not for medical advances.

In Judaism it's considered a very good sign to die on your birthday...

[Wise Young]

Wow, I got more responses in this thread than I thought!

My main concern was in relation to what I can only call a vision. I have dreamt before, but I, like many forget the dream like 2 hours into my day. There are only three dreams I have remembered (every second of them), and all were nightmares, of which one was what I can only describe as this vision I have been boring you guys with. I do share some of the many posters' sentiments, but I have to admit that I believe my situation was a little different. I am not concerned as much as the events of the day leading up to my accident, such as my girlfriend calling me to say she was waiting to meet me at my cousins, which is why I left at that moment which coincidentally placed me at the right place at the right time. It was simply the whole process of having this dream and it having enough of an impact on me for me to remember it enough to share with my girlfriend in the car like a week after (prior to me even thinking about anything to do with paralysis) I had it, and then for me to be placed at that right moment, that exact moment. By the way, the guardrail which I collided with is part of an on-ramp which I took practically every single time I rode my motorcycle; something was just different that day.

I appreciate you guys listening to me.

Let me give it a shot. Instead of all the mystical or physical possibilities that are mentioned, let me try a neuroscientific angle.

Most of us live our lives in anticipation of what will happen. In fact, our brains are anticipation machines. Our memory, logic, and behavior modification are all desinged to anticipate rewards or punishments that modify our behavior. Part of the pleasure (or thrill) of riding a motorcycle is the knowledge that you are vulnerable. Every motorcycle rider thinks about crashes. I know because I use to ride a motorcycle. The balance between fear and thrill is constantly there when you sit on the seat of a motorbike going at 45 mph.

So, it is not surprising that you had a premonition of your crash. Your brain knew a lot of things that you may not have been conscious of. The scary question is whether or not the premonition caused the crash. Is that possible? Who knows where the premonition comes from. As you say, you seldom have nightmares that you can remember. Perhaps you have been dreaming a lot about crashes and you remember this one because of the accident.

Wise.

[catlady]

I'm a highly-skeptical atheist type too, so here's my completely rational 2 cents...

I think vivid dreams are scary both pre-and post-SCI because of "sleep paralysis," which occurs during REM sleep and sometimes right before or after. So it's very common to have dreams that one is paralysed, because one effectively IS, but a dream like that will stick with you if you have a SCI, for obvious reasons.

I didn't have any vivid dreams pre-SCI, but did in the hospital (maybe aided by painkiller/sedative withdrawal) and the sensation of being paralysed ALL OVER (rather than just from T12 down) was a common (terrifying) theme.

So at least that could explain your dream/laminectomy similarities. Ever have memorable sleep paralysis before or after? Or exceptionally vivid dreams? Lucid dreaming is also associated with sleep paralysis, I believe.

Lori

[Wise Young]

I love your explanation. Wise.

I'm a highly-skeptical atheist type too, so here's my completely rational 2 cents...

I think vivid dreams are scary both pre-and post-SCI because of "sleep paralysis," which occurs during REM sleep and sometimes right before or after. So it's very common to have dreams that one is paralysed, because one effectively IS, but a dream like that will stick with you if you have a SCI, for obvious reasons.

I didn't have any vivid dreams pre-SCI, but did in the hospital (maybe aided by painkiller/sedative withdrawal) and the sensation of being paralysed ALL OVER (rather than just from T12 down) was a common (terrifying) theme.

So at least that could explain your dream/laminectomy similarities. Ever have memorable sleep paralysis before or after? Or exceptionally vivid dreams? Lucid dreaming is also associated with sleep paralysis, I believe.

Lori

[antiquity]

In Judaism it's considered a very good sign to die on your birthday...

Wow, really, why so? People hold lots of superstitions about death dates and birth dates but one I'm familiar with says if you die around your birthday, it means you were supposed to die, if you die at any other time, it means your death was premature or truly an accident. Now I have go look this up. :D

Sorry about the hijack Tuf.

[catlady]

Thanks, Wise, I like your theory too. I often get visions of accidents on scary bridges, etc, but nothing happens--if by chance something *did* happen, it would become a "premonition."

I think I imagined the Laval bridge collapse at least 45 times :-)

L

[mimin]

Wow, really, why so? People hold lots of superstitions about death dates and birth dates but one I'm familiar with says if you die around your birthday, it means you were supposed to die, if you die at any other time, it means your death was premature or truly an accident. Now I have go look this up. :D

Sorry about the hijack Tuf.

not sure exactly why it's a good sign, but it says that moses died on his b-day. i'll look into it

[Wise Young]

Thanks, Wise, I like your theory too. I often get visions of accidents on scary bridges, etc, but nothing happens--if by chance something *did* happen, it would become a "premonition."

I think I imagined the Laval bridge collapse at least 45 times :-)

L

Hmm, you are not the first to say this. A good friend told me that she had a premonition of the Minneapolis bridge falling. I bet you that a lot of people had postmonitions (if there are such things) of the bridge falling. Maybe that is why there are so many copycat disasters once one disaster happens. Fortunately, there was no second bridge collapse.

Tuf,

Being a mathematician does not shield you from irrationality. This is supported by the recent revelation that Newton probably spent more time on alchemy and calculating the day that the world would end than he did on the Principia.

Perhaps it is my age and the fact that I have been burned too many times... I tend to be a lot more skeptical of the paranormal explanations than I used to be. On the other hand, I believe that some people are very sensitive and can see things that normal people cannot see.

My mother, for example, is incredibly perceptive. She has an uncanny ability to sense things about people. My wife is like that also. It happens very quickly and there is no logic. I sometimes get these feelings, i.e. I feel that I know things about a person with a certitude that cannot have come from rational information. No, I don't believe in other lives, deja vu, or seeing into the future. I think that it is just sensitivity to people. Some people call it instinct or gut feelings. What I have to be careful about is not to act of these "gut" feelings whereas many people, particularly women, do act on them. I rely of them only if I have no other choice.

A premonition is defined by encarta as:
pre·mo·ni·tion (plural pre·mo·ni·tions)
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/premonition.html

noun
Definition:

1. intuition of future event: a strong feeling, without a rational basis, that something is going to happen

2. warning about future: an advance warning about a future event

[Mid-16th century. Directly or via French< late Latin praemonition-< Latin praemonere "forewarn" < monere "warn"]

pre·mon·i·to·ri·ly adverb
pre·mon·i·to·ry adjective


In the language of dreams, it seems that you had what is called a premonitory dream

http://innerself.com/Miscellaneous/5_dreams.htm
PREMONITORY DREAMS

Premonitory dreams are similar to telepathic dreams in that your spirit leaves your body and ventures on a voyage of discovery. Premonitory dreams are special because they reveal the future and allow the dreamer to see truths that are not accessible in waking life.

Apparently, premonitory dreams are a very common considering that Google turned up over 43,000 references to this term. Of course, almost all the ancient cultures considered premonitory dreams to be real and predictive and people who dreamed such dreams were highly valued (Source (http://www.springerlink.com/content/r0g286073661w064/)). Hundreds of books have been written on the subject.

I did a literature search on premonition and came up with several interesting studies. Roselli, et al. (2000) pointed out that "throughout history, dreams have inspired great works of art, solved scientific problems and, because of the premonitory value attached to them, have influenced transcendental decisions." Many mothers apparently experience premonition of stillbirths (Trulsson & Radestadl, 2004). Older patients often have a premonition of their death (Ngeh, 2003). While searching, I also came across an interesting paper by a patient who described remarkable awareness, feelings, and emotions while in a comatose state (Gimenez, 1992). And, of course, I found some mumble-jumble psychiatric stuff about premonition being expressions of subconscious desires (Halbreich, 1980); I am sort of glad that psychiatry is no longer the "in-thing".

Wise.


Rosselli D (2000). [Brief history of dreams]. Rev Neurol 30: 195-8. Throughout history dreams have played a crucial role. Dreams have inspired great works of art, solved scientific problems and, because of the premonitory value attached to them, have influenced transcendental decisions. This paper reviews some of the dreams that have been a part of the world's literature and historical tradition. Unidad de Epidemiologia Clinica y Bioestadistica, Universidad Javeriana, Bogota, Colombia. diego_rosselli@post.harvard.edu http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=10730331

Trulsson O and Radestad I (2004). The silent child--mothers' experiences before, during, and after stillbirth. Birth 31: 189-95. BACKGROUND: The quality of care received by a woman who gives birth to a dead baby is crucial for her long-term well-being, and limiting the period between diagnosis of intrauterine death and induction of delivery decreases her anxiety risk. The primary objective of this study was to explore why induction of delivery for most women should not be delayed more than 24 hours from the diagnosis of intrauterine death. A secondary objective was to determine how the time between diagnosis and delivery should be spent. METHODS: Twelve women were interviewed about their experience before and during the diagnosis of their baby's death and the event of birth. Interviews took place 6 to 18 months after the delivery and were analyzed using a phenomenological methodology. RESULTS: Women experienced premonition, difficulty communicating their worry, cessation of verbal communication with staff, unreality and numbing, desire to get rid of the dead child immediately, going through childbirth, and total silence. Many women believed that they were not respected as a human being during the process of diagnosing the intrauterine death. Themes emerged indicating caregivers should not reduce to zero the time between diagnosis of intrauterine death and induction of delivery. Time may be needed to obtain medical information about the delivery and to prepare the woman for meeting with and saying goodbye to her long-awaited but now silent baby. CONCLUSION: The period between diagnosis of intrauterine death and induction of delivery may give health professionals a major opportunity to improve a woman's ability to cope with the event of stillbirth and prepare her to meet with her loved but now silent baby. Further clinical research can identify supportive mechanisms for parents, and sources of iatrogenic psychological trauma that should be eliminated. Department of Women's Health, Ullevals University Hospital, Oslo, Norway. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15330881

Ngeh JK (2003). The phenomenon of premonition of death in older patient. J Am Geriatr Soc 51: 1672-3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=14687404

Gimenez R (1992). A metaphysical journey in a comatose state. Clin Nurse Spec 6: 191-4. This paper is about the intense experience of being in the hospital in a comatose state resulting from an aneurysm with a massive brain hemorrhage and two subsequent surgeries. The event begins with a premonition of what will happen from a street name. The experience of brain surgeries, along with the fine care of the nurses, left me with a truly memorable impression. This paper describes the various feelings and strong emotions that I experienced while in a comatose state. It suggests that a patient in a comatose state can exist in a deep state of emotions close to ecstasy. The paper concludes with gratefulness to all the people who followed me step by step on this journey. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=1286457

Halbreich U, Assael M and Driefus D (1980). Premonition of death in painting. Confin Psychiatr 23: 74-81. 3 cases of subconscious premonition of death are presented. In these cases premonition found access to surface by means of painting. One may explain that phenomenon on grounds of determination. But an attempt for explanation by definition of a psychological and/or physiological pre-setting is done. If that pre-setting is not realized by an accidental death, it may be fulfilled by suicide, somatic complaint as a manifestation of masked depression or by overt depression. Flashes of the subconscious pre-setting may reach consciousness in dreams or in paintings. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=7418384


Wise.

[Juke_spin]

not sure exactly why it's a good sign, but it says that moses died on his b-day. i'll look into it

He's just as dead, isn't he?:confused:http://www.sitcomsonline.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Juke_spin]

Being a mathematician does not shield you from irrationality.
Wise.
Nothing can adequately shield you from irrationality or the effects of advertising.http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/images/smilies/05.gif

[cara_m]

I have always found the phenomenon of Astral Projection quite intriguing and this is what this thread reminds me of. Acording to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection there are three models. Seperation, phasing and skeptical. I tend to believe that the seperation and phasing are the most credible. It seems to me that the phasing model is what the op experienced and in this phase is what "I" call the premonitions. I don't see how the seperation model connects to the future but I haven't really studied it very seriously. What does interest me is wondering if any sci's have tried practicing astral projection and if there were any conflicts with any of the models. How would they perceive their bodies in the projection state, sci'd or a sense of freedom.

Our minds can play many tricks on us however I believe we have a spirit, or some people would call it an energy. the seperation phase to me is where many people have experienced their near death experience. Their spirit leaves them momentarily into another realm.

In my opinion it's not just physiological and all in our minds. Our spirit, energy and yes soul can help us in many ways. We are not solely tangible as some may believe. Although I could elaborate I truly don't want to turn this thread into another religious one. Maybe I'll start a new thread.:o

[Tufelhunden]

Let me give it a shot. Instead of all the mystical or physical possibilities that are mentioned, let me try a neuroscientific angle.

Most of us live our lives in anticipation of what will happen. In fact, our brains are anticipation machines. Our memory, logic, and behavior modification are all desinged to anticipate rewards or punishments that modify our behavior. Part of the pleasure (or thrill) of riding a motorcycle is the knowledge that you are vulnerable. Every motorcycle rider thinks about crashes. I know because I use to ride a motorcycle. The balance between fear and thrill is constantly there when you sit on the seat of a motorbike going at 45 mph.

So, it is not surprising that you had a premonition of your crash. Your brain knew a lot of things that you may not have been conscious of. The scary question is whether or not the premonition caused the crash. Is that possible? Who knows where the premonition comes from. As you say, you seldom have nightmares that you can remember. Perhaps you have been dreaming a lot about crashes and you remember this one because of the accident.

Wise.

Dr.Young,

First-off, thanks for the input. Anybody with as much on their plate as you who still has the time to "smoke and joke" with us mortals is to be cherished and held on a high pedestal in my book. I truly appreciate it and am not so sure everyone on the board does. To me, it would be like having a forum for economists with the likes of Bernanke, Greenspan and Solow to just casually sit and have a "chat" with. Unheard of...I do think in your case that it makes you even that much more effective of a researcher, interacting with the future beneficiaries of the fruits of your labor. I think you gain something from us that inadvertently gets transferred into your work, without you, me, or anyone noticing.

Anyways, in regards to your response, their is a contradiction in your logic, partly due to a fault of mine. My crash was on a route which I was very familiar with, and which was part of what I would call a "very safe" drive. Nothing compared to some of the windy cutbacks I used to carve up with my motorcycle.

My lucid nightmare wasn't specific to any "ride" I was about to embark on, nor did it implicate any of the more riskier rides I went on from that point in time until my crash. Had my nightmare been indicative of any specific ride, I think it would have tied itself closer to one of the rides in which my behavior exhibited that of risk-seeking, rather than risk-aversion.

I am sure my premonition didn't directly cause my crash, because as I mentioned earlier, this crash happened on an on-ramp I was very famiar with.

All in all, hind-sight is 20-20. I read about time travel and am a believer in branch theory. I have concluded that something unrelated happened earlier that day which provoked a type of sleep which allowed me to "peek" into an unrelated branch of a different dimension of my existence. I interpretted(sp?) it as a "nightmare" although now that I think about it, there may not have been anything sinister about it. I am paralyzed now, and I wasn't then. It felt "sinister" when I was able-bodied, now, being paralyzed, I don't see it as such.

Everyones' input on the matter has given me material to think about and I will continue to read on the topic. By the way, I find the posts of this thread very insightful on the various personalities of the posters.

Thanks.

For those interested in time travel, but without formal training, you may want to begin here (http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/timetrav.htm).

[mimin]

He's just as dead, isn't he?:confused:http://www.sitcomsonline.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

yes indeed but the question is where he went afterwards :angel: :D

[mimin]

Dr.Young,

First-off, thanks for the input. Anybody with as much on their plate as you who still has the time to "smoke and joke" with us mortals is to be cherished and held on a high pedestal in my book. I truly appreciate it and am not so sure everyone on the board does. To me, it would be like having a forum for economists with the likes of Bernanke, Greenspan and Solow to just casually sit and have a "chat" with. Unheard of...I do think in your case that it makes you even that much more effective of a researcher, interacting with the future beneficiaries of the fruits of your labor. I think you gain something from us that inadvertently gets transferred into your work, without you, me, or anyone noticing.



ditto that 110%

[cljanney]

ditto that 110%

I'll second that.

[addiesue]

OK Here's one for you all to figure out. About a week before my accident I had a bad dream. For some reason it really upset me and I got up and went out in the bay where we keep the ambulances (I was at work) My partner was already up and out there. He used to get up really early and finish his paperwork and clean up the ambulance sometimes. I wouldn't even have remembered this if we hadn't talked about it so long because he liked to sort those kind of things out. Not long after my wreck he asked me if I remembered talking to him about it and said that it bothered him because of my wreck soon after.

Anyway the dream was that I was in a green minivan for some reason. I am driving and my husband was in the passenger. Suddenly I lose control of my vehicle and we are rolling. I am the only one who is in a panic. I look over at my then husband and he looks at me reaches over and pushes the button unhooking my seatbelt. I am holding on to the steering wheel trying to stay in my seat. For some reason the back door to the van is now open and I am trying not to fall out. For some reason I am holding on to a bike by its tire that is in the back seat. next I am flying out of the vehicle and I wake up. I remember that dream still clearly.

In my accident I lost control of my Blazer in a curve flipping it many times. For whatever reason my seatbelt isn't on right and I was holding on to the steering wheel trying to stay in my seat. I remember being up on the dash. Eventually I was ejected. I had big bruises on my upper arm where the seat belt caught my arm ( I think anyway ). Not long after my husband filed for divorce whuile I was still in the hospital. Weird isn't it. I have dreamed this dream since then only I hold on to a wheelchair instead of a bike.

[addiesue]

Oh and I triple that!!!!