Virtual memory? [Archive] - CareCure Forums

keps

03-25-2007, 11:00 AM

bob clark

03-25-2007, 12:34 PM

Can anyone explain what virtual memory is, and how to get more of it?

My computer is going slow, and has ground to a halt a couple of times recently. Both times, a message came up saying the virtual memory was low, but there were no directions about what, if anything, to do about it.

Virtual Memory or your "Paging File" are the same thing. It's just an amount of space on your hard drive that your computer uses when it runs out of "real memory"... aka "system memory". Some computers are sold with a very little amount of system memory in them to save on cost. If you're running XP you should have at least 512MBs of system memory. I bought my gaming computer with 1GB but added another 1GB for a total of 2GBs. Many of the newer games and sims need lots of system memory so they don't have to use virtual memory (on the hard drive) which slows game play down considerably.

Most computers come from the factory allowing the Operating System (I assume you have XP that now calls it the "Paging File" and I think it's unlimited) to control your virtual memory or paging file. To check, go to the Control Panel/System/Advanced Tab/Performance/Setting Button/Advanced Tab again and you'll see 3 items listed there. "Processor scheduling" (should be ticked to "Programs"), Memory usage" (should be ticked to "Programs") and finally your "Virtual memory". Click on the "Change" button and look to see how it's set. For normal usage it should be set to "System managed size".

I have my virtual memory set to "Custom size"... and it's set to run on another hard drive. It works faster this way because it uses a different "channel" but since I have so much real memory or RAM it probably never gets used anyway. If you ever choose to use the "Custom size" option the rule of thumb is to set the amount to 1 and 1/2 times the amount of "real" system memory that you have installed. And always set the "Initial size" and "Maximum size" to the same number so it runs static and not dynamic.

But if you want to speed up your computer the best and cheapest thing is to clean it (your hard drive) up. Use your "System Tools" (Start/All Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Disk Cleanup and then Disk Defragmenter) to "Cleanup" your hard drive" and then "Defragment" it. Compressing your old files may take quite a long time... that's one option in "Disk Cleanup". If you're running low on system memory (getting a warning) then you're having a system memory AND hard drive problem. Is it getting full with a lot of programs and stuff installed on it? Go to "Start" then "My Computer" and right click on the C: icon and then left click on "Properties". That will show you how much hard drive space you have available. If it's getting close to 80% full it's time for a good cleaning or a larger hard drive. Or install another one and have two of them. I have two hard drives in my computer to help keep things organized and running fast. My house and life are a mess but my computer is lean, clean and mean!

But the best way is after you've done these two simple procedures (Disk Cleanup and Disk Defragmenter) is to add some more "System RAM" or "Memory Modules". System RAM is pretty cheap nowadays. You can go to Crucial (http://www.crucial.com/) and use their "Crucial Memory Advisor™ Tool" but probably use their "Crucial System Scanner" first and it will tell you what you already have installed and give you a recommendation as to what you may want to upgrade to. It's easy to install memory.... you just need to know if you have a free slot or two for it. The "Crucial System Scanner" will probably tell you this.

Or you can download and run a free program called "The Belarc Advisor" (http://www.belarc.com/free_download.html) that will show you how many memory modules you have installed and how many empty slots you have available, if any.

Windows XP uses around 150MBs just to run its fat self. And if you have a bunch of stuff running in the background or worms, trojans and/or viruses in your Operating System that will slow you down too.

Have you run an up-to-date, anti-virus and anti-malware program lately? If you have a fast connection try using Trend Micro's online scanner called "Housecall" (http://www.trendmicro.com/hc_intro/default.asp). That might pick up some things your current anti-virus scanning program isn't. And always run an updated Ad-Aware SE Personal Edition 1.06 (http://www.download.com/3000-2144-10045910.html) once a week and delete all the cookies and malware and even delete some bad registry entries that build up in your computer. You may need to sign into CareCure manually after you do this if you delete their cookie but if you know your username and password, no problem. Or just tell them that you "Lost your Password" and they'll send you it again or another one in a few minutes via email. Also clean up your system's registry with one of the many free registry cleaner programs available. These can screw you up a little bit if you're not careful but most are very safe to run. I use RegCleaner (http://www.worldstart.com/weekly-download/archives/reg-cleaner4.3.htm) and haven't had any problems. Well, one a few years back.... the MS Speech Engine program was losing its registry entries so I needed to add it to the program's "Ignore" list.

Good luck Keps.

Bob.

Cris

03-25-2007, 12:34 PM

You must be logged on as an administrator or a member of the Administrators group in order to complete this procedure. If your computer is connected to a network, network policy settings might also prevent you from completing this procedure.

Open System in Control Panel.
On the Advanced tab, under Performance, click Settings.
On the Advanced tab, under Virtual memory, click Change.
Under Drive [Volume Label], click the drive that contains the paging file you want to change.
Under Paging file size for selected drive, click Custom size, and type a new paging file size in megabytes in the Initial size (MB) or Maximum size (MB) box, and then click Set.
If you decrease the size of either the initial or maximum page file settings, you must restart your computer to see the effects of those changes. Increases typically do not require a restart.

Andy

03-25-2007, 01:04 PM

I seem to remember something about virtual memory messages being some crud running in the background jamming up the works, but it was so long ago I forgot what it was...big help, eh? :p . But right now is quite the ideal time to fix that as memory pricing is currently falling through the floor. To start, how much memory do you have in your computer? If it is less than 512MB on an XP machine, you will run into performance issues with page file usage. Much more noticable at the 256MB and below levels, as your hard drive becomes your memory...and that runs a lot slower. In general at least 512MB of physical memory is preferred.

Check the Crucial advisor Bob linked, find out what you need...but dont buy from there. Next check the cheapest internet computer parts source for your country, I'm not sure what that is in the UK, but a good start in the US is newegg.com. Memory prices are almost 1/2 of what they were some 3 months ago, with no signs of slowing down apparent...fancy chart (http://www.dramexchange.com/)

Bhaskar

03-26-2007, 08:38 AM

Right click on my computer, go to properties. Then Click on Advanced -> Performance -> Settings -> Advanced. Find the Virtual Memory

http://i14.tinypic.com/48mrzu9.jpg

Now Click on change.

http://i3.tinypic.com/2dhbluo.jpg

Now select the partition where your windows is not installed. Commonly its installed in C:, so choose any other partition and select Custom. Now in Intital size allocate min. amount which is atleast twice of your physical memory or RAM, i.e if you are useing 256 MB of RAM then allocate 512. And in the max. size allocate 1024.

Click on OK. Then Apply. OK. Again Apply Ok. Restart your Machine.

keps

03-26-2007, 09:55 AM

bob clark

03-26-2007, 03:17 PM

Thank you everyone for your help. Thanks to you lot, the problem is now fixed!

I got my bf to read your replies (as most of the tech-speak went over my head :o ), and he understood what you all meant.

So, he did a defragmentation (cheers Bob), and a hard drive disc clean-up.
Did the defragmentation overnight, as it took so long.

The virtual memory now appears to be perfect, and the computer is now back running at high speed.
The bf is going to be removing stuff as well and putting stuff on disc to get rid of more stuff on the machine.

Andy - I do have an XP machine. We now have 42GB of the original 160GB. Of course, before defrag we had a lot less than 42, which was the problem.

Thank you again to everyone who replied, because it was all useful stuff. :thumb:

Hi Karen,

Good to hear that you and your boyfriend got things running better. Defragmenting doesn't add any space to your hard drive, it just rearranges things to where they should be so they can be accessed faster. Kinda like a librarian putting the books back into their proper location after a bunch of unruly 3rd graders do their thing in the library! Well maybe it clears up some extra space by reorganizing things... I'll have to check the next time I defrag.

I'm not surprised it took so long to defrag since it appears as though it's never been done before on your machine. And "Compressing Old Files" can really take a long time too if that gets neglected. I Disk Cleanup and remove any programs or games I don't think I'll ever use again and then Defrag. I do it about once a week and it only takes a few minutes. Always Disk Cleanup first, then Defrag. It's just regular computer housekeeping.

I have my computer set up so it doesn't get very fragmented by "partitioning" my hard drive. My primary or master hard drive has 3 partitions on it. It's only 74GBs since it runs faster than most (10,000RPMs) hard drives but I have 30GBs allocated for my C: partition where the Operating System is installed, 5GBs allocated for the D: partition which I have only for my "Virtual Memory/Paging File" and 35GBs allocated for my E: partition where I load all my games and simulators. Then on my second hard drive, that I can remove and replace back into my backup computer with its own copy of XP already in place, it has 4 partitions on it. It used to have 6 until I screwed up trying to get my sister's computer running by using it. Her computer recognized my C: partition as a single drive and I lost everything when it formatted the whole hard drive. Duh. I use that (excluding the C: partition where my Alienware XP Operating System is located) for storing "static" stuff like pictures, videos, music, downloaded exes etc. And now for my Virtual Memory/Paging File.

In this way all those static files that are stored on my other hard drive can be used in both computers and don't get intermingled with my programs on either of the C: partitions, slowing them down by getting fragmented. And with my games and simulators on another partition E: on my primary hard drive, they don't get intermingled with the C: programs and files either.

And since my C: partition (aka drive) is smaller it can now be cleaned up and defragmented in just a couple/few minutes. My gaming/simulator partition hardly ever gets very fragmented so only takes a minute or so to cleanup and defragment.

It's no surprise that your quite full 160GB hard drive must have seemed like it was taking forever to cleanup and defrag! :) And you only have 42GBs of free space left on it? It's getting quite full, what the hell do you have on it!!?? Never mind! :) I probably have more than 3/4s of free space on all my partitions.... except my J: partition where I store most of my static files. But that stuff just lays there doing nothing until I need it and is outta the way and doesn't have an effect on my computer's speed so can be filled up almost to the max. You need a certain amount of "wiggle room" on a hard drive for XP to run properly. You'll never get XP to run correctly if you ever fill your 160GB hard disk drive to its maximum.

You're getting close to the 80% mark on your hard drive so try not to keep adding stuff that's unnecessary... without perhaps removing one-for-one some other stuff. It's amazing what we can learn to live without if we have a hard drive failure or need to do a format and clean install of the Operating System. That's another reason to have multiple partitions. You can backup all your "can't live without" stuff on the other partitions and format and clean install XP on C: without blinking an eye should it get corrupted. All your pictures, videos, music and downloaded exes etc are still on your hard drive, tucked away safely on the other partition(s) but are just as easy to access as if they were on a single C: drive. I think large hard drives should come with at least a 20% storage partition D: on them by default and if you want to, you can format it into a single drive when you install the OS. Most people don't know about creating partitions and they are so useful.

Anything REALLY important should be backed up onto CD-Rs or DVDs and kept separate from your computer, at another location or even in a safety deposit box.

If you ever need to format and clean install XP consider creating at least one other partition for storage purposes. In this way you won't have to concern yourself with backing up onto CD-Rs or DVDs anything the next time you format and clean install the OS, should you need to. It only takes about 10 seconds to create one and it can be formatted from within XP. But you can only do this during the format/clean install procedure of your hard drive. Well there's an $80 (???) program called "Partition Magic" that can partition a hard drive without formatting it but I'd never use it. And with a hard drive that's already kinda full like yours it would make it difficult with the Partition Magic program. And probably take hours and hours to complete.

Don't forget to download Ad-Aware SE Personal Edition 1.06 that I linked to. Everyone should run this or similar program once a week (update it regularly). And the RegCleaner program too. It's safe to run it because even if it does remove (which it shouldn't) some registry entries it automatically saves a backup copy of your registry that you can revert back to. I bet Ad-Aware will find hundreds of old cookies and malware files the first time you run it. And RegClean, maybe as many old useless registry entries as well.

You probably only have one large C: drive or partition in your "My Computer: Hard Disk Drives". Here's how mine is set up:

http://bcee1.home.comcast.net/My_Computer.JPG

Bob.

Andy

03-26-2007, 05:30 PM

03-26-2007, 08:26 PM

Karen, glad to read that your computer woes are no more.

If I recall correctly Windows 98 and Millennium Edition had problems managing virtual memory.

In some cases you can speed up Windows by almost 20% by removing unnecessary start-up tasks. To see what programs are running you will want to go to "Start," "Run," type "msconfig," and click the startup tab. I would recommend going to System Info to find out what each program is in your startup menu.

How-to speed up Windows XP

1. Open the Windows Control Panel
2. Double-click on System
3. Click on the Advanced Tab
4. Click on the Settings button in the Performance section
5. Place a check mark in the "Adjust for Best Performance" and click "Okay"

Windows will lose some of its eye-catching appeal but the bump in performance is noticeable

rob9966

03-27-2007, 01:11 AM

Many people have given great advice, so the only thing I can add is that you need to ensure that your pagefile is on the fastest drive in your system. You could always plug a 4 gig USB drive into your system and use it for the page file, but you're still better off adding memory. I run all 15k SCSI drives and they handle multi-tasking far better than IDE/SATA, but very few people are as geeky ;)

bob clark

03-27-2007, 10:03 AM

Raptors, eh? :thumb: . Check out that new 1T Hitachi (http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2949), it is getting up there in speed close to the Raptors due to density. The price tag might be high, at least compared to the usual $100 drive. And spending that much $$ you almost want to RAID for the OMG factor, and you better have a ton of porn to store too! Unless you are doing something legit like pissing off the RIAA with music and movies. I'd almost just get 3 more drives same as what I have now and do a RAID 10 array, that might be cool and put one of those two RAID controllers my MB has to work. At $85 a crack I almost might to load up that machine with more crap. Think I need a hobby or something? :D

Ok, back on topic after that bit of bored rambling...after loading some application it is good to defrag also, keeps the 'data here' picture looking nice and pretty...

Hi Andy,

Actually I only have one Raptor installed. My other HD is a 2 year old 7200RPM IDE 120GB Seagate Barracuda that I really like. It's so quiet. But going with or without RAID 0 was the toughest decision that I had to make when I ordered this computer. After much research I decided against it. Hard drives are finicky enough without trying to have two of them run in perfect tandem. For the combat flight simulator that is my main interest (Lock On: Modern Air Combat/Flaming Cliffs v 1.12A) it would only save me a few seconds as the mission was loaded into memory. RAID 0 is kinda like SLI. In theory they should double your access time or double your graphics capabilities but of course they don't in real life. Maybe a 30% increase for most applications. In MS Flight Simulator 2004 SLI slows the simulator down! I had the Pro version but found it so boring I gave it to the cable guy. I like to blow things up not fly long boring 6 hour flights on auto-pilot LAX to Kennedy. :) Taking off and landing is the only fun part of flying... unless you run into some emergency like the vertical stabilizer and rudder falling off and having it end up in Jamaica Bay NYC.

If I were into editing large video files I might consider RAID 0 but I need a few seconds to grab a beer or cup of coffee anyway so usually do this as the particular mission I'm fighting is loading into memory.

I notice on the spec sheet for the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 that the Average Latency and Read Seek Times are less than twice that of the 150GB 10,000RPM Western Digital Raptor. And it's only warranteed for 3 years as opposed to the Raptor's 5 years. I'd have no idea what to do with a terrabyte of HD space.

It's funny, as soon as I got broadband I lost interest in porn. At 42kbps I had to wait 2 minutes or more just to download a single jpg... now I can download them so fast they go by like a lightning-speed slide show! I don't know, it's more of tease than anything else anymore just reminding me of what was or what I'd like things to be again. I only steal a few tracks or CDs once in awhile from the newsgroups. The RIAA be damned.... maybe if the artists would put more than one or two good tunes on a CD I'd buy more of them. A lot of the stuff that I download I already paid for once anyway when it was only on vinyl and/or cassette tape (I'm dating myself) or the CD was lost, stolen or scratched so my conscience is fairly clear.

Hey, my neighbor gave me the official version of "1 Night In Paris" (Hilton). The guy who taped it took advantage of a young, stupid 19 year old spoiled brat and is a real creep. His style of hatwear even bugs me! :) The DVD has the color footage as well as the fixed up green night-vision footage that is now in black and white. The best part of it are the 4 "Bonus/Boner Videos". They're pretty good XXX 15 minute or so long hardcore vids. If you want a copy PM me.

I was looking around at the GF 8800 GTXs to quad up my Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe. At $1,200 for a pair of 'em that's kinda high. And I just learned that the AMD FX-60 is Dual Core but is the same speed (2.6GHz) as my current FX-55. For my 939 PGA MB (damn, not an AM2) only the FX-57 is faster @ 2.8GHz. I can OC my FX-55 to 2.75GHz right now even with both my GF 6800 Ultras hooked up to the liquid cooling system. If I put the factory fans and heatsinks back on them I could probably eke out another 100MHz from the FX-55 and surpass the stock speed of the FX-57 that now goes for $800 if I wanted to put up with the noise of the fans. It probably has about zero overhead in it for OC'ing but I'll have to look around for some more details to be certain.

The simulator that I fight/fly doesn't take advantage of Dual Core technology so I'm kinda stuck in limbo upgrade-wise unless I change out the MB and make a big investment in a small upgrade, performance-wise. I will be upgrading my video cards if I find out that my processor isn't going to bottleneck me but probably not for another year.... maybe something new will hit the market making it worth my while or just wait until the 8800s come down in price when the next generation of nVidias come out.

Bob.

Andy

03-27-2007, 07:43 PM

Whenever I get that urge to buy parts for the RAID idea, a few quick checks on benchmarks and real-world tests kind of gives me a reality check. Now if it was a simple as another 85 bucks and just do RAID 0, I do it, but I'm leery of doubleing the possibilty of trouble. So maybe mirror and stripe...that would be better...but then add 3 drives. Then the benefits for my usage come into play...maybe I'll stick with the good 'ol single drive. Or just get some 15K enterprise class SCSI drives...that will fix the need for speed, lol.

I'd be surprised if a single GTX wouldnt work great for you. I actually think a single GTX would stomp on your SLI setup in the benchmarks. No need to buy two of them at this point, or maybe even for some time unless some new mega game comes out. Bottleneck with your cpu...probably. I know my P4 massively bottlenecked my GTS, C2D fixed that. If I remember right around 3.2 or so Ghz no more gains were to be had on the graphics only benches in 3d06. Going up to 3.7 Ghz did no graphics score improvements, just cpu scores. Below the 3.2, it was slowing down the 8800. Just moving from 3.4 P4 to 2.4 C2D resulted in something like double 3d06 score, so it is the cpu technology involved as well, not just clock cycles. But hey, maybe just getting the GTX (or even a GTS) for your current system would be a nice improvement. Adapting it to your system would be pretty easy, I like this (http://www.jab-tech.com/EK-Waterblocks-EK-FC8800-GTX-Delrin-Top-pr-3712.html)you can get either 1/2 or 3/8 barbs for it. Wanna see a little of how it goes together (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1165213)? :p Just a little upgrade might go a long way...

Oh yeah, virtual memory...that stuff is like...so virtual! Is that like 3D? (gotta stay on thread topic, lol)

bob clark

03-28-2007, 10:26 AM

Hi Andy,

Yes, we must stay on topic so I'll type the words "vitual memory". Okay, now that that's outta the way....

As I said before, I believe RAID 0 is just for certain applications like video editing large files or perhaps heavy duty Photo Shop work. Or maybe some heavy Excel spreadsheet work but that seems like a stretch. Maybe you know of a use for it and I don't mean the OMG factor! But gaming isn't one of them that makes it worth while especially if you have 2 or more GBs of fast memory. Perhaps some maps will load a bit faster... big deal. I wanted a new gaming computer for one reason and that was to run LOMAC/Flaming Cliffs v 1.12A at it's best/fastest. And since it can't take advantage of Dual Core or Dual Processors I'm like maxxed out with what I got.

You did a nice job of documenting and pictorially memorializing all the work you did on your Dell at Hard Forum. I'm registered at the Overclockers Forum and have rarely been to Hard Forum except when I needed to find an answer to a question not to be found at the OC forums.

I don't bother with mesh fan shields at all anymore. Since I smoke a lot and there's dog hair and God only know what else floating in the air in here they get clogged too easily. They restrict the airflow so much, off they come. I see that you've changed to a courser than usual mesh screen so that's cool. Hey, I have both side covers off my XFuel anyway so exhaust fans are of little use to me. I now have a fan hanging from a wire aimed at my memory modules and one (with rubber feet on it) setting between my SLI cards for added cooling of the memory chips. If I have an extra fan laying around I feel compelled to put it to use even if I have to put up with the extra noise. Anything is quieter that my old Alienware! And once the side covers are off I rarely put them back on so heat buildup really isn't a concern for me.

I needed to replace my original Thermaltake 680W PSU (Thermaltake upgraded me to a 700W Toughpower.... I think their 680W Purepowers were a bad design to begin with since they gave me no grief at all when RMAing it back) so the back side cover needed to come off to run the cables. My new computer looks like a Rube Goldberg design but I'm not trying to impress anyone. Functionality over aesthetics... in other words I'm too lazy to put them back on!

Looking at the EK-FC8800 GTS Waterblock in your pictures would make one think that the SLI tab connector is covered by it. But it's advertised as SLI compatible so I guess the connector will squeeze in there some how. I read that on one the latest versions of the SLI capable 8800GTXs they have two SLI tab connectors for some future, details yet to be released, capability. Supposedly a driver update will activate them and I imagine add some more speed or other features to the cards. But heat be damed, I can't get my 6800 Ultras to overclock much anyway (maybe 5%) and I don't come close to the default max temperature. How much OC'ing are you able to get outta your 8800? I think it's a voltage bottleneck not related to heat. Even when I run the auto-overclocker designed by nVidia for the video cards it'll artifact when I run 3DMark06. It barely OCs the cards at all anyway. And they never get hotter than 65*C or 70*C and the default core slowdown threshold is a whopping 135*C.

http://bcee1.home.comcast.net/GPU_temp.JPG

I just read at Legit Reviews (http://www.legitreviews.com/article/421/1/) using an AMD Athlon 64 4800+ processor that a pair of these expensive bad boys are bottlenecked.

As you can see in our testing the 8800 GTX SLI is bottlenecked by the CPU in nearly every test we ran. This is where the added cost that I mentioned in the beginning of the article comes in. Even running on an Intel Core 2 Duo is going to hold a pair of these cards back in most tests.

I actually think a single GTX would stomp on your SLI setup in the benchmarks. No need to buy two of them at this point,....

I agree.... I can't get close to your benchmarks results with my pair of 6800 Ultras. nVidia even has a program called "nTune" that supposed to optimize (OC) all the components and after running it for hours as it "tunes" everything or even by doing my own BIOS overclocking, I still come way short of your 3DMark06 numbers.

But since I have SLI I want to use it. It would look so bare in there with just a single card. :) Maybe I can get a pair of the less expensive 7900 series that would compliment and run my system at its fastest. A computer's components should be matched in speed because as we know the weakest (or slowest) link in the chain is the max that it'll run at anyway. I'll have to start looking at some 7900 or 7950 series cards and be content with that until I upgrade my MB.

So that's a money saver. I like to keep a computer and upgrade it for 3 years so I still have over a year to work/play on this one. It's funny when building and working on computers become more the impetus than gaming at high rezs and fast framerates. Shall I now use use the "N" word? Nitrogen.

Now get back to work washing and polishing your car as you make a run to the garage to get those Telco spreadsheets out of your trunk. Smoke and Coke break!

Bob.

Andy

03-28-2007, 08:58 PM

The more I think about RAID the less I want it, like you said, not much gain for my uses.

Upgraded my Dell?!? That's a whole new machine, the Dell was just on the table in the background in those pics. It's in an Antec P180 case...was silver (a Best Buy $80 delivered sale special, smoking!), and thanks to Antec's excellent RMA policies...it is now a P180B (black panels and door). I just emailed Antec that I'm an idiot that broke every panel on my case and they cheerfully sent me the 2 panels and door in black free of charge. Gotta love them, great customer service, even if their customer might be a bit of a scammer. No harm, I'm sure the case costs them maybe $5 to build in China.

Wire mesh...yeah, that does block flow, but I'm kind of leery of the stuff inside getting all gunky, so maybe I'll live with it. As any air going into that case is through those screens hopefully it will stay new looking with no dust inside longer. Speaking of blocked flow, I'm kind of thinking of stuffing another single 120 radiator into the case right around the fan frame between the PS and hard drive cage. Reason being is that with the slow and quiet fan speeds I'm running, I kind of want to increase cooling capacity at that airflow level. Right now it is kind of borderline to what temps I like with the fans at 1000 rpm, and with another rad I can boost cooling and probably run the fans slower then as well. Probably another BIP for the new location, and maybe I'll put one of these (http://www.thermochill.com/pa160.php) in the current front location like this guy did (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1031441). I was going to do this origionally, but no one had the PA160 in stock anywhere at the time so I went with BIP's. Gotta do some measuring tonight to see how cramming another radiator in would work. Yeah, I could get another case (Silverstone TJ07 1st choice, Lian Li V2100 2nd right now) which would have room for a triple rad and then some, but I dont want to start over, and if I can get close to the same cooling performance with my contraption, hey, that'll be good.

8800 overclock on mine is 648/900 (stock is advertised as 500/800 for the GTS, 575/900 for the GTX, GTS GPU is the same as GTX with some parts disabled, memory on GTS is supposedly lower grade than the GTX, still trying to find photos of GTX memory chips to verify this) . I use Rivatuner, so the next step up from 648 is something like 670 or so, which crashes 3d06. My memory can go to 1000, but ATI Tool finds errors after a while, so it sits at 900 error free. The 100 mhz for the memory is worth 200 in 3d06. I'm think I could really fine tune the speeds doing bios flashes instead of steppy Rivatuner, but too lazy to do that, driver level oc for me. I heard nTune didnt really work. I tried using that when I had the 8800 in the Dell, it kind of sat there for 20 minutes and didnt seem to do anything, so I deleted it. Not that hard doing things manually I think.

It's funny when building and working on computers become more the impetus than gaming at high rezs and fast framerates.

I'm thinking the same thing, lots of fun just creating some fancy machine. Gaming is a bonus. Not ready for nitrogen yet (although 6GHz does sound cool :p ), but those phase change systems do sound rather interesting, lol.

Oh yeah, I think this machine has tons of virtual memory in it...not sure where it is located though :thinking:

bob clark

03-29-2007, 09:21 AM

Hi Andy,

I think the virtual memory is hidden inside the PSU nowadays but don't quote me on that.

I don't understand why you and others want your liquid cooling radiator and pump inside your case when it can easily be placed outside and on top of the case. Heat rises! And the same with the PSU. My Koolance, which is now an older version only has 2 fans cooling the radiator, sets upon the outside top of the case and looks like part of the case. And blows the heat upward and away from the computer/components. The newer versions have 3 fans so can spin slower obtaining the same results as mine at slightly faster speeds (noise). It's a 10 speed. Plus they have the thermal sensor temperature readings and thermostat controls (manual or auto) at your fingertips that look cool with the blue LEDs, on the front of computer. One glance and you know the temperature of your processor. Push a small single button and find out the temps of your GPU(s). And another to change from auto to manual fan speeds. It's a no brainer to me.

The one thing I don't like about the Koolance system that I have is its inability to be calibrated to the motherboard sensors or temperatures. There's about a 10* C difference in readouts and I believe the motherboard readouts over the Koolance. So rule of thumb on my system, I add between 6*C and 10*C to the LED readouts depending upon the temperature. They should have a button or control of some type on the Koolance unit that would enable a person to sync up the two separate readings. And use the same sensors instead of separate sensors that are located in slighly different locations on the CPU (the reason for the different readouts) and GPU(s). I've had many email discussions with Koolance about this oversight and lack of synchronization and scalability. I haven't been in touch with them in over a year but I bet the newer models will incorporate this simple concept.

Here's the "Integrated" case that I have. It's not the best looking case in the world but I've seen computer cases made outta cardboard boxes! But you can buy external top mounting cooloing systems that will fit on practically any case you choose. I like the looks of those aluminum Lian Li cases.

http://bcee1.home.comcast.net/PC3-720.jpg

You can see all of the Koolance Integrated cases HERE (http://www.koolance.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=28_43&products_id=166). Or just go to their website (http://www.koolance.com/default.php) and see all their products though I imagine you've already been there.

I'd prefer the larger diameter tubing that you're using but I bought my computer from ThunderboxPC (now out of business!) so couldn't hand-pick every component. I was gonna build my last computer but chickened out at the last moment. I wouldn't have saved much if any money and if you take one look at my livingroom or garage, I'm kinda space-challenged when it comes to box storage. I have a box farm in the garage and a box garden in my livingroom. I need to do a little "house cleaning".

Plus I'm tool-challenged too. It shouldn't take many tools to build a computer but a Dremel tool would probably be a handy one to have lying around. And I don't have any workspace in here anyway. Just a dining room table that's full of old bills and papers etc. piled about a foot high. I'm too "intimate" with my USPS mail carrier, UPS and Fed-Ex people as it is. I buy just about everything online and just can't (obsessive-compulsive perhaps) throw a box away!

A good workbench would be a nice start too but now I'm starting to make excuses.

I considered an Asetek VapoChill LightSpeed [AC] (http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/cooling/Asetek_VapoChill_LS_1.html) but decided against it. At the time they were $1000 so I could just wait and buy the latest/fastest CPU for that price without all the hassles of vapor cooling. They have to "rev" up to temperature before you can turn your computer on so that takes a couple extra minutes to boot up, I'm sure they're kinda loud plus there are condensation concerns. And it only cools the processor, not the graphic card(s). I think that's changed now but you've got to really be into the OMG factor to put up with those hassles. It would be nice to have a cold beer setting in the computer case so I wouldn't have to wheel over to the refrigerator but I'll make the sacrifice and stick with plain old liquid cooling for now.

Sorry about my Dell reference snafu. I didn't mean to insult you! :)

Funny that Alienware allowed Dell to buy them out but as they say, it's all about the money. Pride be damned!

Gotta go, my "professional" shopper will be here soon. I'd prefer that he shop in the afternoon but since he works the nightshift as a CT scan tech (well in "nuclear medicine??) at one of the local hospitals I deferred to his time preference. If I want my measly SSDI check to get here every month I need as many happy workers as I can keep on the tax rolls. :) We need more production I say as I crack my virtual whip.

Bob.

Andy

03-29-2007, 07:29 PM

LOL.

I actually stumbled across an online vendor that carried the Vapochill Lightspeed today while surfing (err, making widgets at work) and read that while the Lightspeed is good, there are two other models that company makes that are supposed to be silent. I'm sure one of those would be good for another 400mhz on my machine. At 3.8 GHz it gets kind of toasty, and will crash stability testing program (Orthos) once the temp spikes up to 68C on one test, I'm sure voltage would cure that, but at 1.52 or so volts already at that speed, you are getting awful close to Intel's warning that if you go more than 1.55volt vcore, they almost guarantee your CPU has one foot in the grave. Then after you put more volts in, you still have the added heat to deal with. But yeah, I think a bit of the instability is in fact thermal related as dicking around with 3.8 Ghz and the CPU touching 68C results in a crash 4 times so far for me. Havent really played with it much though, I knew I was at the thermal limits of my cooling due to the quickly spiking temps.

Why internal? Why not? That Koolance top you have does look clean however. More of a hot rodding home brew vs. store bought type of deal, whichever the user wants to do. I decided on the rad thing last night, just going to add one more of the 2 I already have in there, no fancy replacements, easier to cut in. Cheap too, with a hunk of tubing and delivery, $35.00.

That should virtually keep some of my memory cool.

Andy

04-07-2007, 12:36 AM

Hey Bob, got the third rad in the machine...dropped ~5C load temp at the same slow fan speeds. Think I can fit more crap into my machine?

Before:

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/amichalski00/newwater.jpg

After:

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/amichalski00/3_rad019.jpg

Still gotta figure out how to keep the fans controlled/wired, once I do it wont be such a rat nest

keps

04-07-2007, 05:40 AM

*Brain collapses under weight of techspeak* :)

bob clark

04-07-2007, 10:45 AM

Hi Andy,

That looks good.... mine is a real rat's nest but I don't care what it looks like. As long as the air flow is unrestricted it's cool by me.... both my side panels are still off so that's not a concern. And I just took the front door/panel off the front of my case too. It was getting in the way of the remote control IR receiver of my soundcard's breakout box. Plus the new X-Fi breakout box looks cool... it's a shiny black that matches my black case... my old Audigy2 Platinum was white or beige and "clashed" with everything else being black... it's yellow now from all the cigarette smoke so I'm not sure what color it really is! I'll be cleaning it up soon... I'm on a mission to make my cousin the best but cheapest computer that I can. More later. The bad news is that it'll be all beige-ish.... ewwww.

I just replaced my SoundBlaster Audigy2 Platinum with a SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Edition (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102189). I needed some DVD+R and CD-R disks so tossed a new soundcard into my virtual "shopping cart". I saw it in the window and just couldn't resist. :)

The audio quality difference was worth the money and effort.... it really makes my Klipsch 5.1 Ultras shine. Now let's see about that $50 rebate.... I bet this will a challenge! Although I'm disappointed that the card isn't equipped with a TAD (Telephone Answering Device) connector so the 30 bucks that I spent on a 3rd party Telephone Call Center software program is now a waste, as is my voice modem. And they just sent me an email that they released a free updated version of the Call Center software. Oh well. I never really used it anyway but it was kinda fun to use as a toy once in awhile... I felt like a Telco employee with my headset on. :) The Creative ModemBlaster voice modem that I bought never came with a working software program that was XP compatible although it was marketed as though it was. And I spent more money on Creative's f*ckin' toll call tech support than I did on the damn voice modem itself because of their crap software.

Creative still doesn't have a toll free tech help number. Of course their SALES # is toll free! After thoroughly reading through their "virtual" owner's manual I called them almost in disbelief that there wasn't a TAD connector on the X-Fi Fatal1ty card.... and I had to wait 15 minutes on my "dime" to make sure the Aux connector couldn't be used for that purpose. I laid into the guy a bit though it's not his fault... but it burns my butt that Creative is the only hardware and/or software company that I know of that doesn't have toll free tech support. And their tech support costs money after a mere 60 days from date of purchase.... on top of the damn toll call! And since the X-Fi Fatal1ty card doesn't have a TAD connector on it, it's a digression of utilitarianism. Insanity.... but they IMO make the best soundcards so I'm in a Catch 22 of my own making.

I've always sent my cousin (he's like a brother/best friend) my old computer after I upgraded to a new one. He doesn't need/want a top of the line gaming computer so after 2-3 years it's aged to the point that suits his needs. But this time, after buying my XFuel and having so much trouble with it right off the bat I waited a while before sending him my old Alienware. He's still using my old Dell XPS R_400 (upgraded to 800MHz) and it's running fine... but is starting to show its age and is slowing him down since he "steals" his neighbor's fast WiFi connection!

I'm glad I did wait since I had to send this XFuel back to ThunderboxPC twice for a total of 3 months. I would have been computer-less for all that time. I probably would have bought an inexpensive eMachine to tide me over. So I don't trust this XFuel like I did my Alienware, that's been rock solid since I first got it. But everyone, if they can, should have a backup computer since these contraptions are so finicky. If you can't get online to find information and/or parts you're SOL.

So I now have an extra Audigy2 Platinum soundcard w/breakout box, an extra P4 2.6GHz (478PGA) processor and will shortly have two extra PCI-e GF 6800 Ultras. Oh, I've decided on upgrading to your video card..... a pair of 8800GTS' should match my computer's current configuration or even bottleneck it a little bit, that is to say the AMD FX-55 processor. Quad SLI! But I'm gonna leave the fans and heatsinks on the video cards at least initially to see how far I can OC the processor when it's the only device on the Koolance liquid cooling system. I should be able to get it close or maybe even surpass the FX-57 (the fastest processor for my 739PGA MB) that runs at 2.8GHz, which is somewhat equal in speed to an Intel 4GHz.

My problem was finding a cheap motherboard that had both a 478PGA socket on it and a PCI-e video slot. Not an easy task... it took me 5 hours of searching and I almost gave up. But finally found THIS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157106) ASRock MB at NewEgg. It's kinda spanning two technological eras.... old P4_2.6GHz 478PGA 800MHz FSB with the new PCI-e video bus. Albatron made a series of them but no one online carries them anymore. Man, I searched for hours.

My cousin has a brand new 160GB WD HD and I have a free "Corporate" edition of XP Pro with SP2 so this new machine should only cost me around $250 to make. We'll probably be stuck (if I can't find a recent work-around) without any of MS' "Critical Updates" but with a decent firewall and AV program it should be well enough protected. That MS WGA crap. We'll see.

He's gonna send me one of his old digital cameras so I'll take pictures as I build the best cheapest computer in the whole world!!! :)

The cheapie case ($9.99!) will only be cooled by two 80mm fans that cost $2.99 each..... nothing like your liquid cooled rads! But I did select a better/quieter HSF (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=SP495S11-U&cat=FAN) (though cheap... well.... inexpensive sounds better!) for the processor since the one that's on it now sounds like a vacuum cleaner.

So this is my new project. I need my cuz to send the HD first then I'll start ordering everything. I hope he sends it soon since these online e-stores change their stock like like I change my underwear. Oh, I don't wear underwear. Like I change my socks. Oh, I don't wear socks. Like I change my..... ah, just forget it....you know what I mean.... oh, like I move my "virtual memory" around to different HDs/partitions. Yeah, that's it.

Bob.

nide44

04-07-2007, 01:01 PM

".....and I have a free "Corporate" edition of XP Pro with SP2....."
Bob,
My son (c-5 incomplete) just got a new Toshiba laptop with Vista, and wants to partition the HD so he can run XP (SP2) as well (he has an unopened DNS 8 Pref CD he bought & wants to use- doesn't have the xtra $$ for 9.5).
He's getting a friend to help with the partitioning, but wants to kpow how to get a free version of XP (can he use my SP2 CD from M$oft ?) to install once he partitions. How is it possible to get it free?

Andy

04-07-2007, 07:07 PM

Sounds good on the new rig. Those 8800's should be pretty quiet anyway, double slot blowers and all. Much quieter than my old ATI 800XT single slot fan thingy was at least. You'll see peak temps of around 85 on air with 'load tool' stuff (ATI Tool), low-mid 70's on real world stuff.

Sound wise I'm kinda using a low level card, only goes up to EAX 2, and that's about it. It came with some sort of Karioke software, but I'm tone deaf.... The reason I got this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829127001) was to interface computer sound with my home theater surround. It has a hardware Dolby Digital Live encoder in it, and it sends the signal via Toslink to the home theater stuff in a language it can understand for working surround sound. Works great too. I got it well before you can buy it at NewEgg, or in this country for that matter. I got it from some Korean shop that was selling them on Fleabay. Interesting getting a package from Korea, never did that before. Tech support...ha, I'd like to see that with this card (maybe now though there might be some). But yeah, most tech support sucks (with the exception of Polycom support...now there's a class act...but that is more enterprise level support due to what they are selling).

Post some photos of the new rig when you get it done!

I felt like a Telco employee with my headset on.

You are assuming we actually answer the phone to have a need for a headset. When we hear that wierd ringing sound we look at each other wondering what that is, but after a while it decreases until it is virtually gone and out of our memory.

bob clark

04-07-2007, 07:54 PM

Hi Bob,

If you noticed I italicized the word "free". When XP Pro was first released a friend of a friend of a friend's brother-in law's sister's half-brother etc gave me a "Corporate" copy of XP Pro that can used without having to be "activated" by MS. There are quite a few registration codes that work with it and there are even key generators online that will make one up for you. But MS has changed their security approach to XP as it relates to software piracy and these "Corporate" copies of XP Pro.

Everything was perfectly fine until MS started cracking down on these "Corporate" versions especially in regards to updating them. MS even allowed for these copies to update the "Critical Updates" for awhile but wouldn't allow other software updates. Now they won't even allow the Critical Updates as far as I know. It was kinda funny, within 24 hours of MS launching their new anti-piracy program known as WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage) the code was cracked and just a short Java Script line could be added to the address bar as XP was updated. MS soon fixed this simple oversight but it was cracked again. The constant "cat and mouse" game that goes on with computer software. Whether or not there is a new crack for XP I don't know. I'll probably screw around with it when I partition, format and clean install my corporate copy of XP Pro onto my cousin's HD and see what happens.... after I do a Google on it. I can always just format and clean install again if I notice anything out of the ordinary happening. Before installing all the other time consuming programs and doing the setup tweaks etc.

Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) is a controversial anti-piracy program enacted by Microsoft that requires users of Microsoft Windows to validate the authenticity of their copy of several recent Microsoft operating systems when accessing several Microsoft Windows services, such as Windows Update, and downloading from the Microsoft Download Center.

It also advertises Service Pack 2 of Windows XP, which requires manual intervention to disable. Previously voluntary, it became mandatory for use of these services in July 2005.

As of late March 2007, WGA was installing through Windows Update with no identification of the name of the program until it was installed. Note that third-party firewalls can be used to block WGA ("WGATRAY.EXE"), apparently without problems.

I have a "Redistributable" copy of SP2 that I downloaded well before all this WGA stuff came out so I'm cool in that regard. I'm pretty sure if you downloaded SP2 (or have it on the CD) now you'll get the WGA program in with it.

The corporate copy of XP Pro that I have isn't even encrypted so I can make as many copies of it as I want without burning it using a cloning program. But with the WGA program out I would advise your son (if he's not very computer savvy or willing to waste his time on it) to get a legitimate copy of XP and save himself the headache and perhaps loss of data, although MS said they'd never do that. There are huge student discounts for XP... I think I've heard of it being available for around $20.00 or so. And with Vista out now it'll probably be even cheaper.

I don't know if your copy of SP2 came out before MS started writing with the WGA program in mind or not so can't say if it would install with my corporate copy of XP Pro or not without getting constant reminders to upgrade to a legitimate version of the XP OS. Or have other nasty things happen. And even though XP and Vista will be on separate partitions there may be something in Vista that looks for the activation code in XP on the whole HD or even other separate physical HDs in a computer. I don't know.

I also don't know how important those MS "Critical Updates" really are if you're behind a router and good firewall. Maybe someone else in here knows. I have a legitimate copy of XP Home that I keep updated on my new computer so really haven't been on top of the issue lately.

I lost my copy of SP2 when I accidentally formatted over it (duh) but I and a few other people that I know have it on a CD. If I could only find my copy of it. If I can't I'll just get someone to send me their copy.

I had SP2 "slipstreamed" into a copy of XP Pro but was never able to get it work in that manner. I'm gonna try it once again since my cousin's HD is over the 136GB limit for XP and it allows for larger HDs to install XP on them. PM me if you want to talk about finding a "free" copy of corporate XP Pro but you have to enjoy screwing around a bit with computers if you use an illegitimate copy of XP and be a bit of a risk taker. You never know what MS has up their sleeve next. :)

Best of luck with your son, you're a good and caring father.

Bob Clark.

04-07-2007, 09:56 PM

Once there was a time you could put XP on two of your home computers but it looks like dem days maybe gone. WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage) is an advantage for Microsoft.

nide44

04-08-2007, 11:36 AM

bob clark

04-08-2007, 06:23 PM

Bob ,
Mebbe I better take it to my local 'geeks' shop
and have them do it.... right the first time. I'm
kinda 'puter illiterate. My son sez his buddy is good with it, tho.
I could try to upload my SP2-CD (its from 10-'05 ?- maybe '04?)
to you, if its possible.

Hi Bob B,

Thanks for the offer to upload SP2 from your CD for me but I don't need it. And unless you have a fast upload connection and a place that can store a 360MB file (???) it would be fruitless anyway.

I'll be ordering the parts to build my cousin's computer today. I love ordering computer parts! I just got off the phone with my cousin and he should be able to get his new hard drive, Service Pack 2 disk that I need and hopefully one of his old digital cameras (so that I can pictorially memorialize all the mistakes that I make for Andy) here by Friday. So by some day next week I should know how everything will work out.

I just found a website that has all the "Critical Updates" from MS that can be incorporated into Windows XP Pro with SP2 using a special "integrator" program that will/should bypass the need to install the WGA program from MS. It needs to be done on a fresh format and clean install of XP/SP2 and I'll know some day next week if all goes as advertised.

But I imagine that your son is anxiously awaiting to use his Dragon Naturally Speaking program.

Hypothetically speaking of course, if you ever were to install XP Pro as I've described you can't go to MS Update Website and download anything. It will probably automatically install the WGA program into XP and screw everything up. Meaning that you'll get the below warning/error messages everytime you logon to your (your son's) computer and all the while you're (your son) using XP. Not Cool! But there's no reason to go there anyway since you'll have most if not all of the "Critical Updates" they offer anyway. And if there are other programs that MS offers at their Update website that you may want or need (I never have) there are versions of most of them at the ryanvm.net website (below) that can be installed using the "RyanVM Integrator" program. I already downloaded everything I think that I'll need.

And as I've said before, if you have a good firewall and antivirus program you probably don't need the "Critical Updates" (MS' mistakes!) anyway.

I've never had any problems with the WGA program on my new computer using a legitimate copy of XP Home on it but I've read many horror stories of people who have. It's just another piece of bloated software that interferes with the operation of people's computers. But whatja gonna do?

This website may not mean much to you if you're as computer illiterate as you say but your son's friend should know what it's all about.

http://www.ryanvm.net/msfn/

http://www.ryanvm.net/msfn/updatepack.html

If you take your son's computer to a computer shop they more than likely won't mess around with an "illegitimate" corporate copy of XP Pro but will try to sell you a "Genuine" copy of XP Home for around $190.00 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16837116193). Ouch.... especially on top of paying for Vista. It may be cheaper at other websites or stores or maybe you can "downgrade" from Vista and just buy the XP Home "Update" version for around $80.00. It would probably be cheaper and easier (only one Operating System on your son's computer) to just get the Vista version of Dragon Naturally Speaking if it's Vista compatible. Or more to the point, works properly in Vista. What they say is compatible and what reality is are two different universes! I don't know how well the newer version of DNS works in Vista but there should be some people here who do. Hopefully they'll add their input.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/905474

MORE INFORMATION

Windows Genuine Advantage Notifications notifies you if a copy of Microsoft Windows XP is not genuine. The notification messages only appear on computers that have failed the Windows Genuine Advantage validation process and that are running a copy of Windows XP that is not genuine. If you are running a validated, genuine copy of Windows XP, you will not receive notification messages.

Notification messages

The following notification messages will appear on computers that are running a copy of Windows that has failed the Windows Genuine Advantage validation process:

• Logon notification

When you log on to a non-genuine copy of Windows XP, you receive the following logon notification error message:

You may be a victim of software counterfeiting. This copy of Windows is not genuine and is not eligible to receive all updates and product support from Microsoft.

Click Get Genuine now to get more information and resolve this issue.
When you receive this message, you have the following two options:

• You can click Get Genuine to start the Get genuine Windows process.
• You can click Resolve Later. If you use this option, an icon will be available in the notification area that you can double-click to start the Get genuine Windows process.

• Balloon notification

After you log on to a non-genuine copy of Windows XP, you receive a balloon notification message in the notification area that is specific to the validation failure. You can click the balloon notification or the notification area icon to open the Windows Genuine Advantage Validation Failure Web page. This Web page gives you the specifics of the validation failure and the steps that you can take to make the operating system genuine.

• Desktop banner text
If you use the Resolve Later option, the following banner text appears on the locked desktop:
This copy of Windows is not genuine.
You may be the victim of software counterfeiting
Every time that a notification appears, you receive detailed information about the specific validation failure. The information includes steps that you can take to resolve the problem.

Notes•

The frequency of the notification messages is determined at installation time. The notification messages continue to appear until the non-genuine copy of Windows has been validated as genuine.

• Windows Genuine Advantage Notifications will be deployed by using Automatic Updates.

Since Vista is now available the support for XP will begin to wane as in less and less "Critical Updates" for it. If all goes well with my installation next week I'll be updated with XP's Critical Updates as of March 20, 2007. That's good enough for me.

Personally I wouldn't be so fast to get Vista on my computer. It's usually good to wait 6 months or more until they work out all the big bugs (another SP1) and the third party vendors are able to write good drivers for their hardware and software programs. I'm perfectly content with XP. The problem is that since MS is a monopoly you may not (probably don't) have a choice of ordering a computer with XP on it. If my favorite combat flight sim would run on Linux I'd install that and say good-bye to Bill Gates forever and his monopoly. But I'm stuck just like everybody else. I can order different brands of hardware components for my computer but not different brands of Operating Systems. It isn't right but that's how things are.

I'm gonna watch the Masters for awhile and then PM you.

And I'll let you know how things go next week.

Bob Clark.

Le Type Français

04-08-2007, 08:47 PM

Holy shit! Did you see what your thread turned into, Karen? It's Computers 101. :)

EGS

04-09-2007, 12:54 AM

How much RAM does your current computer have? The more RAM you have, the more virtual memory you have. Nowadays, I'd really recommend having at LEAST 1gb of RAM.

My PC currently has only 600mb of RAM, and it lags a lot. Am thinking about upgrading it, but not enough money. :(

Oh, and I definately wouldn't recommend getting Windows Vista until it's stable. It's already been hacked. :eek:

bob clark

04-09-2007, 02:53 AM

Hi Andy,

I just got done with my Easter shopping for the components for the best but cheapest computer in the world!

8-Bay Screwless ATX Case w/o Power Supply - Beige

MB ASROCK P4VM890 P4M890 478PGA_PCI-e MOTHERBOARD

MEMORY 2 - 512MB CRUCIAL 184-Pin DDR 400 (PC 3200) SDRAM Dual Channel Kit

Logisys 575W 20+4-pin Dual Fan ATX Power Supply

LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with 12X DVD-RAM Write
8X DVD+RW 6X DVD-RW
8X DVD+R DL 8X DVD-R DL White

Mitsumi 1.44MB 3.5-Inch Floppy Disk Drive

Spire QuieTude VI Socket 478 CPU Cooler

FAN COOLING FAN MASSCOOL (QUANTITY=2)

Logitech Attack 3 Joystick

CPU THERMAL PASTE|ARCTIC SILVER5 - 3.5GRAMS

I already have:

P4_2.6GHz Processor

GeForce 6800 Ultra video card

SoundBlaster Audigy2 Platinum w/Breakout Box & Remote

Windows XP Pro SP2

I almost screwed up. I forgot that I needed a 6 pin PCI-e power connector for the GF6800 Ultra so I had to look around for a PSU that had one. I thought they'd be more common than I discovered that they are. I was just gonna put a 480 watt PSU in it but couldn't find anything under 575 watt that had a PCI-e connector and was inexpensive. That woulda sucked had I tried to hook up the video card and couldn't find a power connector for it. Whew. :)

It ain't gonna be a screaming gamer but should get the job done for what my cousin uses it for. I threw in a cheap joystick.... maybe I can get him or my 10 year old nephew (actually my 2nd cousin) to start combat flight simming. I have a couple of combat flight simulators that I have No-CD cracks for so will install them on it.

I hope everything fits together alright and I don't need to RMA anything. Wish me luck on my first "from the ground up" computer build..... I'll probably need it!

The more RAM you have, the more virtual memory you have. Nowadays, I'd really recommend having at LEAST 1gb of RAM.

That's not true about virtual memory. (Staying on topic Le Type Français! :) ) You can add about as much of that as you want.... it's only allocated hard drive space. But you're right about the amount of actual system memory one should have. XP can run okay on 512MBs of system memory but if you're doing anything other than websurfing or running simple non-resource hungry games or applications then 1GB really helps smooth out performance and enhances the eye candy. Especially since everything is getting so huge. I just installed Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2007 and it takes up 2.20GBs of hard drive space and with everything maxxed out it taxes my fairly high-end SLI gaming computer. A simple golf game! The times they are a'changin.

Bob.

Andy

04-09-2007, 07:07 PM

Sounds great, have fun with it! Next thing you know you will be shopping the Lian Li and Siverstones, Thermochills, EK's, DD's, Swiftechs, EVGA's, and a host of other favorites. :D

You say joystick, eh? I did a bit of shopping today also and figured if this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16826102004) doesnt make FSX interesting... (it should as I cant stand that sloppy microsoft force feedback thing I have now with a broken button). Got a few games too, with the latest version of C&C, should be interesting, lots of time wasted playing the origional C&C's

keps

04-19-2007, 09:34 AM

teyrn

04-19-2007, 10:02 PM

Guys, I need your help again please!

My boyfriend is trying to sort it, but no luck.

Our main comp is running very slowly again, and having done a comp check up, it is telling him that the D drive is overfull.
The C drive is now fine. The total size is 142 gigabytes, and the free space is 108 gb, so no problems there.
Disc drive D is causing the problem. The total size is 6.66 gb, and the free space is down to 652 megabytes (9 % only).
He has already emptied the recycle bin and tried defrag, but neither have made any difference. How can he free up any space on this disc drive, as it only appears to contain recovery and Windows files though he can't be sure as when he tried to open it, it just showed a padlock on the screen?
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ETA: My bf contacted Hewlett Packard, and they know all about this particular problem and are helping to fix it.
The quickest and easiest way is move files from D drive to C drive. I wouldn't move installed programs that will mess up your start menu and shortcuts by making them useless. However video's, pictures, documents, stored software, and any other misc. file you might have that can be safely moved. Another option is getting another hard drive and spanning your D drive across the new drive thus making D seem like one extremely large hard drive. Another option would be just to go through D and look for any program or file that you don't need or have a use for any more and just delete it. This is the only thing I think you can do right now to get more space on D. Good Luck :)

keps

04-21-2007, 02:14 PM

Thanks for the advice, Teyrn. But, my bf got the problem fixed with the help of Hewlett Packard in the end.
But it's good to have useful posts like the ones in this thread in case we have more problems. :)

Andy

04-22-2007, 11:53 AM

Andy

04-22-2007, 01:47 PM

<cue bagpipes>

Stripped down the MB as far as you can go, CMOS clear for good measure too, no POST, no beeps, and the northbridge doesnt heat either (which means it is in 'off' mode). Funeral services will commence sometime next week.

In memorium...

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/amichalski00/13-121-059-02.jpg

You may all point and laugh now. And some of you guys ask me for computer advice, lol. :zombie:

Andy

04-23-2007, 01:42 AM

And as I continue to talk to myself here...all fixed. Spiffy new MB from the local store in its new home (actually cheaper than on-line amazingly enough). Thankfully it was just the MB. Note to self...dont be a retard :D

Jack21

04-23-2007, 06:01 AM

bob clark

04-23-2007, 11:59 AM

Hey Bob, how's that new machine coming along? My machine is virtually broken, I'll be having a 'in memory of' service for it this afternoon, should you wish to attend, lol. I was 1/2 asleep and being a retard last night trying to clip off some heatshrink off a connector so I could plug something into it. Only thing the machine was still on, doooh. I think I bridged 12 and 5 volts this time rather than a simple short to ground which usually just shuts off the power supply with no damage (yep, this isnt the first time I was being an idiot). No POST, good thing I still have that XPS as a test bed to see what I fried. I hope it wasnt the MB, thats a PITA to change, not to mention $250. Nice unwanted project for today, ugggh.

Hi Andy,

I shoulda gotten back to you sooner... I took a well deserved vacation yesterday and got a bit drunk. I have a self-imposed a rule against writing while intoxicated (WWI) and usually adhere to it.

Sorry to hear about the early demise of such a nice board. Hey, those things ocassionally happen even to a professional like me. :) Actually just about every problem that you can run into assembleing one of these idiotic creations I ran into. But now that everything is fixed I feel lonely and useless with nothing to do! Hahaha. I'm using an upside down heavy duty cardboard box (my neighbor's wet-vac came in it) as a workbench. I now have my old Alienware (needed to extract the 2.6GHz processor from it... those fuckin' 478 PGA clips!) setting on a plastic chair blocking the front door. I hope a fire doesn't start in here... the upside is that the Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons can knock all they want!

Since there's no fine woman laying next to me in bed at night (I have to bribe the greyhound with a couple Pupperoni treats just to jump up once in a while to say "woof") I was spending that time planning out the next step in the process. Keeping my mind occupied and since I don't have to be at work like you at any particular time I'd be working on her at all hours. But some things need to be done at a particular time of the day when the sun is just right. It's hard to hold a flashlight, screwdriver(s) or hammer (hammer, my favorite tool) and the computer case with one hand while holding onto my wheelchair with the other. I'm glad my teeth are still strong and healthy and my penis very long and dextrous!

The object of my project is to use the parts that I already have here on hand to build the best computer I can for the least amount of money. I think I'm right on budget at around $260. I bought a beige case to match the beige breakout box so I was committed to the color. I prefer black but this is for my cousin and he doesn't care either way. The case only cost me $9.99 (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CMM375X&cat=CAS) and I'm quite impressed with it. It will take all 4 (?) ATX factor motherboards so that was a plus and doesn't come with a PSU. Like you, I need a fairly high wattage PSU (580W) with at least one 6 prong PCI-e connector. Why do 90% of all cases come with a cheap-ass PSU that most builders are gonna toss away anyway?! I don't understand their reasoning other than like everything else in the commercial world, profit. It still baffles me though.

The 478PGA with PCI-e mATX motherboard (that are rare and very hard to find) only cost me $50 at NewEgg. But I thought they sent me the wrong memory.... I'm glad I didn't take to the phone so quickly. I bought a kit of DDR 400 (PC 3200) speed memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146577) and my BIOS showed it to be running only at DDR 333. I removed one module and it was the correct part #. Well, after some BIOS digging I found the setting for DDR 400 and now all is fine. I ran Prime95 on it for a couple hours and it's stable as can be. No blue screens or hiccups at all.

It took me about 12 hours just to put the old heatsink and fan back onto the 6800 Ultra PCB. Since I didn't take it off (it's a 3 piece HSF, plus the board) I had no idea how to put it back together. The "professional" from Thunderbox included the HSF parts but must have lost a couple of screws. At least they were the two screws that didn't have the "built-on or in springs" so I luckily found two small screws with the correct threading that would fit into the fan and exactly 2 plastic washers to keep them from shorting out the PCB. If I needed a 3rd plastic washer I probably would have made one from something lying around here.... oh I don't know... maybe a piece of PCV off my front vertical blinds or what have you. :) This could be a much longer story because I should have extra screws since I have two 6800 Ultras but that isn't the case. When I give the other 6800 away I'll need to take a ride to the hardware store or something. But the two heatsinks still had thick moist thermal compound on them that was to connect thermally the 8 memory chips on the board. It was like someone was icing and freaking cake... it was everywhere. But on the one card they missed (at the nVidia factory) 4 of the memory chips... no thermal paste at all on them... clean as a nun's habit. No wonder that board ran 5 degrees hotter than the other. I could go on and on but I won't.

A lot of my time was spent cleaning up the used parts from all the cigarette gunk and dust that accumulated on them over the past 2-3 years. If it's my computer I could care less what it looks like as long as it runs well... but when you're making a gift to someone you want it to look and smell nice.

I've had the new computer online since last Thursday or Friday using the onboard video and audio. Funny, every computer I ever owned uses either the F1 or Delete key to enter the BIOS. I see that you have an Intel board... I have one in my Alienware (D850GB) and the BIOS is locked down tight... no OC'ing there at all and I found out that both the F1 and F2 keys would work but Alienware told everyone at their forums it was solely F1. Anyway, I had to go to the ASRock forums and after an hour or two I found out it was the F2 key. It doesn't say in the manual... duh. I knew that you only need a motherboard, processor, memory and a keyboard to enter the BIOS and I wanted this thing to POST before I went any further. It's an adventure and so far no big mistakes. When I saw the BIOS screen I was a very happy man.

I think I need to RMA the Lite-On DVD/CD-R burner back to Geeks.... the damn thing sounds like a wood chipper when it's seeking something. If it's not seeking a file or whatever it works great installing everything and even plays music CDs at a normal decibel level. I haven't tried burning anything yet... I need to get some burning software... does that work in WMP 10? I'll have to screw around with that for awhile.

Oh yeah, another funny incident. I was cleaning up both the HSFs, one for the processor and the other 3 piece deal for the video card. Alcohol scrubbing and then letting them drip dry outside in the sunny breezy weather so no foreign material like a piece of paper towel lint got on them. My house is a big mess but the thermal seal must be impeccable! So after spending the whole day assembling the video card I put it in the PCI-e slot and was beaming with pride. It was better now than when it left the factory... since they used the cheapo thermal paste and buttered it on the the GPU and memory chips etc. like they were building a brick wall. So I go to fire the baby up and nothing. Oh no, not another problem I said to myself. I thought maybe a conflict between the onboard video and the 6800 or whatever. It wouldn't even POST so I couldn't get into the BIOS. Another standstill.

After an hour or more of troubleshooting and hand wringing I see (I've been looking but that's not the same as seeing!) that I forgot to put the processor and HSF assembly in! What a freaking idiot. I was so consumed with the video card that I forgot about the processor and heatsink that were drying outside in the beautiful sunny and breezy day. Anyway, I put them in and fired her up and BINGO. Vrrooom.

I called the company that made my case... it doesn't have a name on it but the cable, that I thought was too short, did. So I talked to this really nice Korean or oriental sounding man named Dan. Hey, we're talking about a $9.99 case here! And he can't say enough great things about it. And he had a funny sense of humor too. With his accent it was hilarious. He said "That very good case... that case heavy... strong too. You could use that case as chair it so strong. We make no longer that case... it discontinue. But it a very good case... tell your friends....." This went on for like 15 minutes.. I almost fell outta my chair. As it turned out they didn't make a longer 9 pin USB cable (inside female cable... not the external type) but I found another 9 pin location on the board to get the two front USB ports working.

The only thing that is incompatible between my motherboard and case it the "PowerOn" light. The case came with a three wire connector (only two wires on it) so it wouldn't fit on the two prongs of the MB. I was gonna cut the wires and solder them onto another connecter but then the lightbulb when on above my head (very dim one) and I took a pair of wire cutters and the plug cut into two pieces perfectly. I was kinda shocked that I lucked out like that. But even after I put them on the prongs where they were supposed to go the PowerOn light just stays on all the time unless I turn off the PSU or pull the plug. There are 3 solder spots (no prongs) on the board that say "Power Switch" that would fit the plug perfectly (before I cut it) but I'm afraid I might burn something out with my rather large soldering iron if I try to connect the wires there. Anyway, so I pulled them off and trust me... with those loud fans they'll be no mistaking if it's on or off! I'm thinking about (I'll leave it up to my cousin) unplugging the front fan that's pushing air into the case... that's an option anyway. Most computers just have exhaust fans and pull the air through the case. I have a matching one (80mm) in the back and along with the dual PSU fans thought it would work out well... you want a negative air pressure in the case and I thought that a 3 to 1 ratio would be about right. One fan pushing in and three exhausting out. Whatever my cousin decides he wants to do. I haven't put the sides on the case yet since it's been completed so don't know how loud it will actually be.

I'm still waiting on my cousin to send me his 2 year old but never used WD 160GB hard drive. I have WinXP Pro with SP-2 slipstreamed with all the updates incorporated in it (updates as of the 12th) on a small 10GB partition of my 120GB Seagate backup hard drive and it runs great. If you'd like a copy PM me. No WGA on it and it doesn't need to be "activated". That took me a full day to figure out how to do it.

So my project has worked out fine so far. I hate RMA'ing the DVD burner back since it works fine but it really isn't running properly. I'm talking that it's LOUD!

Sorry to hear that you fried a mainboard but happy to hear that you found a cheaper replacement. Most people wouldn't have accepted responsibility and RMA'd it back to the company for another one. It's a common practice that you read about at the OC forums. According to my readings there, 95% of all mainboards are shipped faulty!!! Fess up and pay for your mistakes you cheap-ass bastards. They make the price of the boards cost more for the honest builders.

After building a computer it becomes even more apparent how cheap you can buy a pre-built one for. Especially ones that are discounted because they're discontinued or for whatever reason. Buying a decent computer with a monitor and an OS for $299 or even $499 etc. is a bargain. If I paid myself minimum wage for all the hours I put into building this computer, it would be worth $4,000 or more! And that's not counting the time ordering the parts and I haven't even started the "clean up" yet or packing it up for shipping to Hawaii. I have more of those packing peanuts on my carpeting than I care to count. They're too big for the vacumm cleaner to suck up so I guess I'll need to pick them up one by one. Oh joy. And my living room box garden is now officially a farm.... just like my garage.

Well that's about it. Right now I have the "virtual memory" set to let Windows control it. Must stay on topic.

Bob.

Andy

04-23-2007, 08:27 PM

Great story, that will virtually stay in my memory for a long time. Photos!

Now that you had the practice run, any thoughts on making a showpiece of some sort? I keep thinking of this, but just dont want to spend the money replacing perfectly good parts (unless I start breaking them again).

Accepting responsibility, ha, that lasted for about 1 day. This morning I was thinking...hey, that board has a 3 year warranty on it. So I called up Intel and told them, 'yup, I went to turn it on, didnt work'. They didnt ask if I was going after wiring within the machine with some wire cutters while it was running in the minutes prior to my discovery, so I didnt tell them. Tommorrow I have to call them up with the serial number as I didnt have it with me, and they will RMA it. So now I will have a spare board. I think this is actually a conspiracy on the part of Intel to get me to buy another CPU from them. Only thing is I cant think of what I need another computer for. I could return the RMA'ed board to the store I bought the new one from for a very roundabout type scheme, still thinking of that maybe. Or maybe keep it in stock in case of another act of brazen stupidity? Or take that Dell XPS and strip the P4 out of it (pretty sure it has a 775 socket chip in it), and the rest of the parts in that machine as well, get a Lian Li A05 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112130) (I think it is cute and tiny), another power supply to fit that, use the pile of air cooling parts I used for a whole month building the Super Lazy Man machine, and have a nice P4 that will be subjectively nicer than the XPS gathering dust on the workbench. But that leads to...will that machine gather dust as well? Accck. Or I could use that board as a 'lets see how fast things can go before they blow up' test bed using those new cheap high-multiplier, low FSB C2D's Intel recently released, hmmm. We'll see what transpires. Gotta love this hobby, eh? I guess I got back up and running again quickly enough, quite the scare thinking worst case senarios.

Andy

04-23-2007, 08:37 PM

Oh yeah, I dunno if you have an IKEA by you, but they sell some nice "build your own" kit-type tables for cheap there. Height adjustable for nice and high wheelchair-table interface, and cheap enough you dont care if you trash it using it as a work bench. Might come in handy!

My little shop of horrors:
(I had to take a shot of the swap for posterity, lol)

crppled007

04-23-2007, 10:41 PM

Come on guys, lets stick on topic. This forum started out as a virtual memory question

bob clark

04-23-2007, 11:15 PM

Hi Andy,

You've committed the unpardonable sin of stretching the page with your photo. Eternal damnation to Dante's Inferno!

So you're gonna pass the buck back to Intel. I probably woulda done the same with ASRock but I got lucky on my first build.

I live by a double standard I guess. It's okay to "steal" intellectual property such as software and music but not RMA an accidental slip of the screwdriver on a piece of hardware! It never hurts to have an extra mainboard lying around and if you so decide, build another dust collector from it. Hey, it could also make a nice birthday or early Christmas gift to someone in your family or to a good friend.

I'll take some photos of my first build when I get a camera. It's on its way from HI now with the hard drive. It's only a 1.5MB camera but should get the job done. I can't figure out how to use a cell phone... uh oh, a digital camera. It'll keep me busy for a day learning how to use it. I'll need to crop out any overages of my living room though... I'm too embarrassed of it! :) My cuz is only sending his extra (but still unused) WD 80GB HD. He can't find the WD 160GB.... sounds like my house and the story of my life. I can't find a damn thing in my house. I always put things in a safe place... you know, a place never to be found again except by accident. :)

When he finds it he can easily slave it up and use that for the video editing that he does. He's a shutterbug of sorts. He has a young son so wants to video him growing up. My father did that with an old 8MM camera... the films were eventually put onto VHS tape but I've never seen them. I keep forgetting to ask my Mom for them so I can put them on DVD.

I'll take a few pics of the rat's nest in the case that's so strong one can "use it as a chair". Then I'll tidy it up with some plastic ties and hopefully the DVD/CD burner will be back from RMA'ing from Geeks and I'll take some more pics of the finished project. It's still in the case now but I hope to RMA it tomorrow. What a pain RMA'ing is. Oh well.

I'm writing this from the new computer now... I really like it. And it flies MS' Combat Flight Simulator 3 pretty well. Better than my Alienware (originally bought with a 1.3GHz) with the 2.6GHz processor and Radeon 9700 Pro in it did. The processor was attached using a PowerLeap adapter (PL_P4/N) that allowed me to put the 478PGA processor on my 423PGA Intel D850GB board. The 423PGA had a top processor speed of 2.0GHz but they were expensive and even hard to find. I eventually bought one and then upgraded again to the 2.6GHz. I just can't stop fiddling around. Do I have OCD? Anyway, it cut the FSB speed down to 400MHz... the speed of the board, holding back some of the speed of the processor. Plus the 6800 Ultra is a much faster card than the 9700 Pro. And the Intel D850GB used that expensive RD-RAM (RAMBUS) and I had all four slots filled with only 128MB modules (512MBS). I couldn't bring myself to buy more outdated (although fast) RD-RAM because I'd have to throw away the four good 128MB modules to get up to a GB. RD-RAM only runs in pairs. Life is just one dilemma after another!

Here's a pic of the camera I'll be using. That's my handsome nephew Danny (second cousin) taking the photo. I used MS Paint and just cut the photo down to 40%. Stretch and Skew. Hint, hint.

Take some photos of your new build. I should have ordered some round IDE cables but like I said, I'm trying to do this on the cheap. I need to buy a pair of 8800 GTS' next month and I'm a poor, non-working, lazy, good for nuttin' bum.

http://bcee1.home.comcast.net/Danny_and_Camera1.JPG

Oh yeah, I dunno if you have an IKEA by you, but they sell some nice "build your own" kit-type tables for cheap there.

That would be piled high with junk in about a month. I need to do a much needed house cleaning.... I mean back the truck up to the front and garage door and start filling it up! Probably 2 to 3 trips to the local dump would get the job started. :)

EDIT:

Now that you had the practice run, any thoughts on making a showpiece of some sort?

Maybe in a year or two. After I get the 8800 GTS' in my XFuel it should be good for awhile. When some new "breakthrough" in computer technology comes about it should make it worth the effort and money. Like some fast "virtual memory". On topic now?

I need some new carpeting and tile in my house so that will keep me broke for some time. Oh, and paint.

Bob.

bob clark

04-23-2007, 11:30 PM

Come on guys, lets stick on topic. This forum started out as a virtual memory question

Just what would YOU like to know about virtual memory that hasn't already been discussed to death?

Andy

04-24-2007, 08:25 AM

Well, the next big leap might be the end of this year, I hear about a new 45nm technology Intel will be putting out, should be even quicker and cooler than that 65nm technology the C2D's have now. That should be interesting considering how stupid cool the C2D's run now. On a lark I ran the new board with no overclock at stock voltage and 2.4ghz with the water cooling and was quite amazed that it ran at 45C with Orthos (dual Prime). Not too shabby considering that at 3.6ghz the thing idles at 40-43C. Doing that the GPU was the hot item in the loop when loading the GPU as well. It actually ran hotter than the CPU at ~52C or so. I was kind of wondering how the GPU was supposed to be the higher wattage type of unit when the CPU seemed pretty toasty also...true if you dont OC it. I have what is known as a "B" chip, which according to internet rumor those will go fast on lower voltages compared to "A" chips, but draw more current resulting in more heat. Bragged about voltages on the 'net seem to confirm that theory, I can do 3.6ghz at 1.3875 volts which is quite low compared to other's results, but heat is an issue that I was chasing after for some time. Others can do the same speed but at 1.5volt with an air cooler (not sure what their temps are though, but 1.5 volt is definately not do-able with an air cooler on mine. But I guess if you have the cooling capacity, B chips can do well at goofy speeds without exceeding Intel's 1.55volt maximum "or else" spec on the C2D's unlike the A chips. I got 3.8ghz on 1.51 volt, but not Orthos stable there, I didnt try too much as the voltage scaling was getting up there, and I really didnt care too much. I have bragging rights at 3.7ghz Orthos forever stable for various message board databases at 1.4375 volts, so I'm good. 24/7 I leave it at 1.3875 volt/3.6ghz. For reference, the stock voltage spec for my chip is 1.3250volt. In case youre thinking 'that's not such a big difference'...I did some calculations with a generally used formula at the 3.6 speed/voltage I run and came up with 107 watts thermal output at that speed, compared to Intel's design spec of 65 watts it is kind a boost for a 50% overclock.

Wow, that went off on a tangent! Nothing like a pot of coffee to get the mind rambling, eh? lol.

Oh yeah, cameras. 1.5 meg is fine anyway. I kind of wonder about these massive megapixel units with obscene picture sizes. For general usage on a computer or internet, you have to shrink them down, so 1.5 should be fine for a 1024x768 photo. Sorry about stretching the screen on you, all my monitors are at 1920x1200, and I keep my camera at 1024x786, but I guess it can blast someone using a lower res than I do at times, oops.

I am wondering, do you think that some more virtual memory would help with not stretching your screen when I post one of my photos?