Vampires a Mathematical Impossibility, Scientist Says

[Leif]

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/061025_vampire_debunk.html

Vampires a Mathematical Impossibility, Scientist Says
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By Sara Goudarzi (http://www.space.com/php/contactus/feedback.php?r=sg)
LiveScience Staff Writer
posted: 25 October 2006



A researcher has come up with some simple math that sucks the life out of the vampire myth, proving that these highly popular creatures can't exist.

University of Central Florida physics professor Costas Efthimiou's work debunks pseudoscientific ideas, such as vampires and zombies, in an attempt to enhance public literacy. Not only does the public believe in such topics, but the percentages are at dangerously high level, Efthimiou told LiveScience.

Legend has it that vampires feed on human blood and once bitten a person turns into a vampire and starts feasting on the blood of others.

Efthimiou's debunking logic: On Jan 1, 1600, the human population was 536,870,911. If the first vampire came into existence that day and bit one person a month, there would have been two vampires by Feb. 1, 1600. A month later there would have been four, and so on. In just two-and-a-half years the original human population would all have become vampires with nobody left to feed on.

If mortality rates were taken into consideration, the population would disappear much faster. Even an unrealistically high reproduction rate couldn't counteract this effect.

"In the long run, humans cannot survive under these conditions, even if our population were doubling each month," Efthimiou said. "And doubling is clearly way beyond the human capacity of reproduction."

So whatever you think you see prowling around on Oct. 31, it most certainly won't turn you into a vampire.

More.
Good to know in those upcoming Halloween times I guess?

[Wise Young]

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/061025_vampire_debunk.html

Good to know in those upcoming Halloween times I guess?



Wow, that is really great logic. It is true. Wise.

[Solan]

The mensa nerd forgot to pay attention when reading up on vampires. To become a vampire it is not enough to get sucky, sucky from a cute vampiress (with eternal big tits and nice ass:mega:), U need to drink some of the vampires blood too. Everybody knows that:zombie:

[Lindox]

Definate Nobel Prize coming for this one!

[adi chicago]

long time ago the huns were drinking blood.maybe because they did not try red wine first.

[Buck503]

Yeah, but i'll bet they can't explain the Wolfman.

[Leif]

Right, like wolfs in sheep clothes. But what was the origin of the wolf man?

[Lindox]

Right, like wolfs in sheep clothes. But what was the origin of the wolf man?

Wolf+Man=Wolfman.

Damn I am getting real good with scientific equations.

[Leif]

Wolf+Man=Wolfman.

Damn I am getting real good with scientific equations.
Easy now, I got both silver and garlic. Equation results would then be, no grumpy women. Hint. (http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthread.php?t=71395)

[Lindox]

Easy now, I got both silver and garlic. Equation results would then be, no grumpy women. Hint. (http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthread.php?t=71395)

That is a fun thread.
But I really think and didn't want to put my thoughts in the fun thread that everyone has a clock inside.
Why the clocks run differently won't change the basics of the clock itself.

Even when I was a child I never slept more then a couple of hours max without waking up. NEVER. Still don't. Even after a couple of drinks..or even a sleeping aid. Max three hours with the additional helpers.

I don't consider myself grumpy due to this..I wake up wide eyed and ready to move.

So the clock ticks differently with each person.
Hormones..maybe. But that wouldn't explain why people are different in sleep patterns as a child on into adulthood.

Could polio have had something to do with it..maybe. But what difference does it make? The clock ticks on.

[Leif]

That is a fun thread.
But I really think and didn't want to put my thoughts in the fun thread that everyone has a clock inside.
Why the clocks run differently won't change the basics of the clock itself.

Even when I was a child I never slept more then a couple of hours max without waking up. NEVER. Still don't. Even after a couple of drinks..or even a sleeping aid. Max three hours with the additional helpers.

I don't consider myself grumpy due to this..I wake up wide eyed and ready to move.

So the clock ticks differently with each person.
Hormones..maybe. But that wouldn't explain why people are different in sleep patterns as a child on into adulthood.

Could polio have had something to do with it..maybe. But what difference does it make? The clock ticks on.
Hey Lindox, you are not grumpy at all and it was not my intention to say so as for the hint above here, quite the opposite in fact if I should say something in that direction, Okay, I say it this way, you are not grumpy at all and in fact quite opposite to grumpiness behaviours, I just wanted to point you towards a thread other than politics you could have had a lot to contributed in. Sorry if it was felt otherwise. - But the question here is; who is Professor Costas Efthimious? And how did he do his calculations whit the axis of his vampire and human equation crossing theorem – that’s the question? And can some prove him wrong? I guess the very silent and much appreciated professor Efthimiou’s have given away some clues as for this. - What will be the equation giving the silent professors answers the fastest way in math?

[Lindox]

I don't know Leif.
They only come out at night and sleep all day..maybe they just wake up cranky and need something to perk them up..thus blood. Coffee must not give them the same kick.

How would have a few vampires infected people they never had the chance to meet..people of the day.
Even in the oldest of days people had protections in the form of dogs so they could sleep peacefully in the night.

Of course vampires were from bats so they could fly into your house at night..well all winter long the windows are shut and if they flew thru them they would not be flying much after that. And when they landed on the floor knocked out from breaking the glass..the dog would have eaten them..no more vampire.

Even plagues couldn't infect everybody and they were more able to enter a person at any time of the day and night..and this professor didn't put into account there might be a very large population with anti-vampire genes...gee this is a long winded bunch of baloney isn't it?

[IanTPoulter]

of course the researcher has based his study on a false premise. He should know that vampires do not kill a fresh victim every time they need blood but rather return night after night to gather blood from the same living person who never realises what is happening as they are put into a state of hypnotic trance. A relationship between a vampire and his/her living source of nutrients can last for years much the same as the realtionship between Condoleeza Rice and George Bush which I beleive is exactly this type of relationship. That woman really does chill me to the bone, I am sure she is one of the undead. I would like to get her near some holy water or a mirror.

[Leif]

Lind'

Most bath men does (most women also). But, no caffeine because then the stay up more than necessary, this is the reason I don’t drink coffee on Saturdays because I don’t want to get some sleep on a Thursday. But as for vampires - they are very clever no matter where they come from; you have to watch their eyes when they say - how are you - you want a coffee? This is how you can sort out the fakes from the real ones (the ones drinking just coffee and the other ones I mean). WhoooOOO0000OOOooo.

[adi chicago]

why nobody mentioned dracula and transilvania .dracula castle is 40 miles away from my home city.

[Leif]

of course the researcher has based his study on a false premise. He should know that vampires do not kill a fresh victim every time they need blood but rather return night after night to gather blood from the same living person who never realises what is happening as they are put into a state of hypnotic trance. A relationship between a vampire and his/her living source of nutrients can last for years much the same as the realtionship between Condoleeza Rice and George Bush which I beleive is exactly this type of relationship. That woman really does chill me to the bone, I am sure she is one of the undead. I would like to get her near some holy water or a mirror.

Condoleezza seems to do OK in here job whatever that is, but she is working hard, not my bat thought? If not for Bush she probably could do a lot of good, she got on the wrong horse. Not here fault, she was lured. Whoopy a looh- gost riders and so on.....

[Steven Edwards]

I'm a vampire.

The sun in DC nearly baked me to a crisp.

[Lindox]

Lind'

Most bath men does (most women also). But, no caffeine because then the stay up more than necessary, this is the reason I don’t drink coffee on Saturdays because I don’t want to get some sleep on a Thursday. But as for vampires - they are very clever no matter where they come from; you have to watch their eyes when they say - how are you - you want a coffee? This is how you can sort out the fakes from the real ones (the ones drinking just coffee and the other ones I mean). WhoooOOO0000OOOooo.

The question is WHAT are you drinking?
I am having Arrowhead EST. 1894 Mountain Spring Water.

[Leif]

The question is WHAT are you drinking?
I am having Arrowhead EST. 1894 Mountain Spring Water.
I am the reincarnation of what right-wingers really want to do… here is the code word; Whiskey Alpha Alpha and Cheers, like a bat out of hell.

[Leif]

I'm a vampire.

The sun in DC nearly baked me to a crisp.No storm yet?:D

[Steven Edwards]

No storm yet?:D Not this year. Wait for the next.

[adi chicago]

why nobody mentioned dracula and transilvania .dracula castle is 40 miles away from my home city.
i will call a dracula niece to suck me.i will be more than pleased .too many vampires girls here in transylvania.

[Leif]

Not this year. Wait for the next.
Do not feel too safe, things are happening Steven, not in your state tough but very close;


The Fox Sisters Cabin

Though less well-known than the other haunted places, the Fox Sisters cottage is perhaps the most important haunted house of all, since the phenomena here in many ways set the standard for later hauntings and even launched a religion. In 1848 Hydesville, western New York, two young sisters named Maggie and Katie Fox began supposedly communicating with the ghost of a murdered peddler. The sisters, in a sort of crude séance, would ask questions of the spirit, who would answer back with mysterious knocks or raps. Many people, including their mother, were amazed at what seemed to be genuine contact with the dead. Both sisters eventually admitted that they had actually faked the sounds—there had been no murdered peddler, it had all been a prank. The women even demonstrated how they had done it. But by then the belief had taken on a life of its own as a religion called Spiritualism, which is still practiced today. Source. (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/top5_haunted_places-2.html)

This was how the Fox News started by the way: Be prepared and don’t take anything for granted, Ok?

[Steven Edwards]

Do not feel too safe, things are happening Steven, not in your state tough but very close; I appreciate the concern, Leif. I gave the ghost story for one house during Halloween in 1995. Tour groups came every 15 minutes, three or four hours a night, for three nights in a row.

We have a lot of cool ghost stories in Charleston. Not to mention the coolest tree in the US.

http://www.angeloaktree.org/images/angel_580.jpg

[Leif]

Steven. Good oak three, really, next to you? Was this the same tree in this movie (do not remember the name) where the tree branches kind of got into the windows and so on, rem some of those movies?, was that this place, I have seen this tree many times? But my nephew probably could say more but this is cool. Do not be aware of the dog, but the tree!

[Steven Edwards]

It's about ten miles away from my house. Some paramedics I know got married under it. (Angel Oak (http://www.angeloaktree.org/))

I'm not sure if it was in a movie.

[leschinsky]

of course the researcher has based his study on a false premise. He should know that vampires do not kill a fresh victim every time they need blood but rather return night after night to gather blood from the same living person who never realises what is happening as they are put into a state of hypnotic trance. A relationship between a vampire and his/her living source of nutrients can last for years much the same as the realtionship between Condoleeza Rice and George Bush which I beleive is exactly this type of relationship. That woman really does chill me to the bone, I am sure she is one of the undead. I would like to get her near some holy water or a mirror.

While I sympathize regarding Rice's coolness, I believe it is Cheney who is a member of the undead. God keeps trying to take him, but evidently he's made a pact with the devil and thus lives on except for when he is in an undisclosed location probably getting a blood "transfusion".

[Leif]

It's about ten miles away from my house. Some paramedics I know got married under it. (Angel Oak (http://www.angeloaktree.org/))

I'm not sure if it was in a movie.
I thought I have seen this three in a movie a few years back in time, can’t remember the name of it tough but I have seen the human faces three before like you posted an according to your link. Quite sure it is the same. Over here we just have cars on the loose, joke, but up north there are quite a few mysteries.

[orangejello]

Over here we just have cars on the loose, joke, but up north there are quite a few mysteries.

But you do have trolls:ogre: Something which makes Norway one of my most favorite places in the world :)

[adi chicago]

all the time i cut my fingers prior my sci i was afraid of loosing my blood,i just sucked the bloody wound.
am i a vampire?

[Wise Young]

I decided to check out the calculations. It is true. Here is my excel spreadhsheet graph, using the assumptions of the vampire biting one person per month and the victims becoming vampires. In less than 4 years, the population of vampires exceeded 4 billion.

Wise.

[Wise Young]

The curve that I showed in the preceding post is very interesting because it applies to the spinal cord injury community as well. If each person in the spinal cord injury community were to "bite" one person a month in the able-bodied community and "convert" them to believe in the cure of spinal cord injury and each of the converts were to "bite" a person a month to believe in the cure, we would soon have 4 billion converts, the whole population of the earth.

Wise.

[john smith]

After the elections, a delegation of advocates will attempt to "bite" several key legislators in DC. This is a last ditch effort to pass the CRPA. If you would like to help take a bite out of these non-believers, then consider participating in Bridges 2 Hope (http://bridges2hope.unite2fightparalysis.org/).

John

[spoda]

Wise,I call that the break girl equation. I try and use it everyday to educate about sci.

The X factor in the equation is that we dont know how long after a bite it takes to become a full fledged vampire. What if the incubation period is say 5 or 10 years?

[Solan]

After the elections, a delegation of advocates will attempt to "bite" several key legislators in DC. This is a last ditch effort to pass the CRPA. If you would like to help take a bite out of these non-believers, then consider participating in Bridges 2 Hope (http://http://bridges2hope.unite2fightparalysis.org/).

John

Something wrong with the link there buddy:thinking:

[john smith]

Thanks Solan;

I got it (http://bridges2hope.unite2fightparalysis.org/) working. Back to killing vampires. :)

John

[antiquity]

not all vampire victims turn, some are just killed/eaten/blood depleted

[Patonb]

Antiqutiy is right.... Depends on what your watching, vampirism is a bacteria/virus so it kills more than it turns.


Then factor in Blade, and Warewolves and yha got a more realitic equation ;)

[Wise Young]

Wise,I call that the break girl equation. I try and use it everyday to educate about sci.

The X factor in the equation is that we dont know how long after a bite it takes to become a full fledged vampire. What if the incubation period is say 5 or 10 years?

Spoda,

That is interesting. Why "break girl equation"?

An incubation period is quite easy to model. I adjusted the equation so that the incubation period is 10 years. In such a case, the curve takes longer to take off, about 50 years to reach 5 billion, as shown in the graph below.

Wise.

[leschinsky]

After the elections, a delegation of advocates will attempt to "bite" several key legislators in DC. This is a last ditch effort to pass the CRPA. If you would like to help take a bite out of these non-believers, then consider participating in Bridges 2 Hope (http://bridges2hope.unite2fightparalysis.org/).

John

Count me in! I'm an excellent biter ;)

[Lindox]

I'm a vampire.

The sun in DC nearly baked me to a crisp.

A lesson learned in when to carry a sun blocker. Umbrella at the least and a beach umbrella if you can.

With your wonderful skin color..you don't want to get sunburned too many times.

My husband years ago was a roofer. He is a blue eyed blonde. One morning after his shower I saw a spot on his back that just a week before was a small mole like ditty..it had turned into something from outer space.
Melanoma. The roofers liked to remove their shirts on
top of roofs when it got to hot.

They surgically removed it and the underlying tumor. And some nodes. Luckily all was gotten. But it scared the living jeebies out of him.

SO..don't get sunburned ever if you can help it.
He started to be a good boy and do what I instructed and hasn't had another skin cancer of any kind since 1977. Of course he hasn't been a roofer since then either. And sunblockers have advanced greatly. But if you don't use them they won't help.

Lecture over.

[Wise Young]

The paper by Costas J. Efthimiou and Sohang Gandhi is actually quite entertaining. The reductio ad absurdum argument that they made is relatively straightforward.
http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0608/0608059.pdf

They make the reasonable assumption that a vampire kills one human a month and that, when that human dies, it becomes a vampire. In such a case, vampires would decimate the entire human population of 4 billion within 4 years. Even if the incubation period of the human after being bitten averaged one decade before the human becomes a vampire, it will take only 60 years for the population of vampires to exceed 4 billion, assuming an inexhaustible supply of victims.

The geometric progression is inexhorable. Even if we were to assume that our current population of 4 billion humans reproduced at a maximum rate and added 12% to the population yearly, there would be no human left on earth within 80 years of the appearance of one vampire who bit 12 victims a year and those people converted to vampires after a decade. Of course, one can assume that a vampire consumes blood from a small stable of victims and most of the victims simply died without converting to vampires. Nevertheless, if vampires are immortal (or live much longer than humans, as folklore suggests), vampires would eventually take over the earth within a few hundred years.

The vampire model is actually quite instructive as a model of infectious diseases. Infections are essentially immortal, as long as they keep spreading from victim to victim. If an infected victim spread the infection to 12 other people per year and each victim then spreads the infection to 12 other people per year, every person on earth would be infected within several years. Note that it is not advantageous for an infectious agent to kill off its victims too quickly because this would reduce the number of infected individuals to spread the infection. If a virus is deadly, i.e. killed its victim rapidly, it spreads more slowly than a virus that does not kill its victims and may become extinct.

In fact, this appears to be what happens with many viruses. For example, when flu viruses first appear, they are often very virulent (infects many people rapidly) and deadly (kills people quickly). But, over time, the more deadly forms of the virus fail to pass from victim to victim and less deadly forms infect more victims. High virulence is also disadvantageous because it allows people to identify infected individuals quickly and take action to avoid these persons, thereby limiting the spread of the virus. Therefore, almost all the viruses rapidly evolve to become less deadly and less virulent. This is what happened with the SARS virus and what will happen to the avian flu. The most successful viruses are ones that are not deadly (i.e. cause mild illnesses), have long incubation periods (so that the victims can travel longer distances and come into contact with more unsuspecting victims), and are less virulent (so that people cannot identify and avoid infected individuals).

I believe that the same evolutionary pressures must shape vampirism, if it exists. A truly virulent and deadly form of vampirism would kill off the entire human population within a few years. This is a sure path to extinction. But, if it is less deadly and less virulent, it will survive.

Wise.

[Kendell]

I love a good vampire movie. I prefer the ones that portray vampires with a touch of humor, and/or in which the vampires are shown as being intelligent, somewhat romanticized, creatures, like in "The Vampire Lestat".

The more sophisticated the vampire, the greater their awareness is for maintaining their anonymity and their feeding stock. They do not have to kill to feed, their bite does not "turn" their victim unless they want it to and go through the necessary procedure to make that happen. They are aware that they have a vested interest in keeping their population low to avoid the very problem of too many vampires, not enough food.

That type of vampire could exist amongst us to this day and the majority of us would be none the wiser.

The vampires who are portrayed as brutish, horrifying , murdering creatures with little interest in anything other than killing and feeding whenever opportunity strikes, however, would undoubtedly have followed the path to extinction rather quickly.

I don't think any vampire portrayals really do justice to the "man" who inspired Bram Stoker's Dracula. Vlad Tepes Dracula - fondly known as "The Impaler" - was certainly real and I'd bet that those who knew him would have rather faced a modern day vampire instead of that sick, sadistic tyrant.

http://www.vladtheimpaler.com/vlad_the_impaler_vs_dracula.htm

[Kendell]

It's about ten miles away from my house. Some paramedics I know got married under it. (Angel Oak (http://www.angeloaktree.org/))

I'm not sure if it was in a movie.

Steven, that really is an awesome tree! Kinda reminds me of a kinder, gentler version of the Whomping Willow in Harry Potter. :)

[Patonb]

Right, like wolfs in sheep clothes. But what was the origin of the wolf man?

I guess none of you watch Dr Who... If you did, you'd have learnt that warewolves/wolfman started when a celestrial organism crashed to Earth, and after centuries of evolution, combined with human DNA, thus forming what we know as warewolves.

A warewolf's bite is also responcible for Queen Victorias unusual blood disorder that wasn't present in her family until her.

[Steven Edwards]

The paper by Costas J. Efthimiou and Sohang Gandhi is actually quite entertaining. The reductio ad absurdum argument that they made is relatively straightforward.
http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0608/0608059.pdf

They make the reasonable assumption that a vampire kills one human a month and that, when that human dies, it becomes a vampire. The paper is based on a faulty premise. Namely:

Anyone who has seen John Carpenter’s “Vampires” or the movie “Blade” or any of the host of other vampire films is already quite familiar with how the legend goes. The vampires need to feed on human blood. After one has stuck his fangs into your neck and sucked you dry, you turn into a Vampire yourself and carry on the blood sucking legacy. As others here have noted, you do not become a vampire after being sucked dry -- you just die. In popular lore, you have to suck their blood to be transformed.

Watch Interview With a Vampire and see how Louis becomes a vampire -- Lestat allows Louis to drink his (Lestat's) blood. Louis later feeds on Claudia, and Lestat makes her a vampire by allowing her to drink his blood.

His reasoning is flawed.

[Lindox]

I prefer Richard Pryors assessment of vampires.
Somebody comes up to you and wants to suck your blood..tell them to go to the blood bank and you hope they get sickle cell. And then tell them to go see an orthodontist and fix their scraggly teeth. YEP. That should do it.