Judy
07-24-2001, 07:33 AM
Here is the transcript of Christopher Reeve's with Brian Williams on July 23, 2001: http://www.msnbc.com/news/604047.asp
Brian Williams: Christopher, what is your basic
position on this, right now, incendiary issue of stem cell
research?
Christopher Reeve: I see it in terms of logic. And I
think logic should be applied to any moral dilemma. So, if
you start with a couple of facts and a question. The first fact
is that 100 million Americans stand to benefit from all kinds
of stem cell research. And for some patients, like ALS
patients, it's the only help.
Second fact, is that for 40 years fertility clinics, which
have to be licensed by the state, have routinely been
throwing out excess fertilized embryos into the garbage.
So, the question, if you believe that life begins the
moment an egg is fertilized, then doesn't it follow that
murder - state sanctioned murder - is routinely going on
in fertility clinics? And wouldn't you want to put a stop to
that because it's immoral? And I don't see that happening. I
see a major disconnect. And the reason there is this
disconnect is because, today, one-in-six American couples
are using fertility clinics. And, second of all, it's big business.
Just one try is $25,000.
So, any politician that goes home and says, 'We are
now gonna shut down fertility clinics because it's destroying
life,' would never get back in office. And that, for me sitting
in a wheelchair, for somebody with ALS is tremendously
hypocritical. So I - just to pick an opponent at random,
[Sam Brownback, R-Ka.] from Kansas says, 'It's illegal,
immoral, and unnecessary to do this research.' And then I
asked him - we were on a panel together - I said, 'Well,
where are... fertility clinics, because you're killing life with
state approval?'
And he said, 'I hadn't really thought about that.' That,
to me, is a big affront. You know there has - you haven't
thought about it? So I believe the question is you wouldn't
get elected, you would not be back in the Senate if you tried
to close them down.
And one other point to make is that the AMA, the
American Medical Association, recognizes infertility as a
disease that can be treated. And that at least 12 state's
insurance will cover it. So, I'm looking at the size of the
equation. I'm looking at how many people have lives to be
saved. What progress could happen in terms of pro-life.
Pro-life is also for the living. And I thank God that there is
now a ground-swell of support, you know, from really the
strongest... to understand the distinction between a fertilized
embryo headed for the garbage, and an embryo... that will
become a life. So you can be pro-life, and pro-stem cell.
Period.
Brian Williams: The pope today - Associated
Press: Pope John Paul II urged President Bush to bar using
human embryos for medical research saying, Monday, 'That
America has a moral responsibility to reject sanctions that
devalue and violate human life.' That's the position you're
up against.
Christopher Reeve: Yeah, but that's the pope. And
there's a big difference - and with all due respect, you
know that there's a big difference between the the hierarchy
of the church, the pope, the cardinals, the bishops, and the
rank and file member of the Catholic Church.
So, for example, your average Catholic has to decide
what part of the religious doctrine they're going to follow
and what not. Many people believe, for example, that
priests should marry. Because priests give marriage
counseling. Now, if they're not married, and a lot of them
are even, you know, caught - questionable practices in
their own lives, how are they gonna do effective marriage
counseling?
And there's the question of contraception, birth
control. Because individuals get to decide whether they
want to have more children or not? That's what most
Catholics are up against.
So, I'm very glad that - as I understand it - that the
president did not give the pope any assurance or direct
answer.
And now we're in a position where 60 senators- 60
senators from both parties, obviously, support federal
funding for this research. And there've been tremendous
conversions of... people like Bill Frist, right, who himself is a
doctor, and an anti-abortionist, and a very strong Catholic.
Strom Thurmond, who I would have thought was absolutely
unmovable, has a daughter with diabetes, and that this is her
best hope of survival. And, again pro-life means for the
living.
Brian Williams: When you -
Christopher Reeve: I mean, we are used to
governmental control. On the local, state, and federal level
they should be there. That's why 12 year olds aren't
allowed to drive cars. That's why the state says you have to
go to school until you're 16. So, you know, there has to be
some purpose for government, and that's why we elect
people, that's why we have this system, to avoid absolute
chaos.
So, when it comes down to this, the stem cell issue,
and you look at the fact that all 50 states license fertility
clinics, then why aren't the opponents trying to approach
the state legislatures and say, 'This is inappropriate for a
state to do?' It's not happening anywhere, as far as I'm
aware.
If someone can tell me where there's legislation
introduced in the state house to shut down fertility clinics, I'll
be amazed. I don't think you can find it in one out of 50.
Brian Williams: The opponents of this say, almost to
a person, the issue shouldn't be about embryonic stem cells.
There are plenty of adult stem cells out there. What's wrong
with that?
Christopher Reeve: They're missing some very vital
information. This whole matter is a question of education, as
a matter of fact. Now, yes, adult stem cells are found in the
brain, they're found in the spinal cord. They're found in
bone marrow. However, these are cells that already have an
identity. They're already doing some kind of a job in the
body. So, would it be possible to engineer to be like
embryonic stem cells that can become any tissue in the
body? Well, perhaps.
But scientists could spend the next five years trying to
do that, and end up with either nothing, or end up with
basically pseudo-embryonic stem cells. But we have those
available now. And another five years of research on
something speculative, there's a lot of people gonna die in
the meantime, unnecessarily.
Brian Williams: How could this help you?
Christopher Reeve: Well, in my particular case, I
suffer from a very small area in the spinal cord, just below
the brain stem, in the second vertebrae, where I had a
hemorrhage in the middle of the cord. And this damage of
blood, what it did was it took the myelin coating off of some
nerves, and that's why I have very limited movement, can't
breathe on my own, etc. So, just a quick word, myelin is
like a rubber coating around a wire. And without that
coating the wire can't conduct electricity. So, myelin coats
the nerves. So, if you become de-myelinated, and the
signals from the brain don't go down to the nerves to their
target, the messages don't go through.
But, human embryonic stem cells can easily be
engineered to become myelin. And then they simply would
be put in, right at the site by injection. And the experiments
in the rat models are tremendous - tremendous.
I have literally seen rats who were paraplegic, and then
they [get] these cells - human embryonic stem cells
injected into mice or rats - mostly rats, they're a little bit
bigger. Anyway - and see these rats after this treatment,
six weeks later they're trying to climb out of their little...
where they're able to, literally able to, climb a rope ladder
with all four legs. And they're - you'd never know that
there's anything wrong with them.
And for me, I mean I need to talk about myself,
because I feel I'm not just representing spinal cord people.
You know, with re-myelination just in itself, that's what's
wrong with MS - it's what happens to people with MS. It
would also help people with stroke, it would help people
with Alzheimer's. You know, it just - the list of diseases is
unbelievable.
But, the ones that would be cured easier would be
Parkinson's and diabetes. Because, one, you have the
question of dopamine. And the other you have the question
of insulin. And the deficit is in a very small area of the brain.
So, you get the stem cells to be influenced. So to get them
to be dopamine is a pretty simple thing to do.
And I would bet, jet full steam ahead, Parkinson's and
diabetes could be wiped out, cured just like polio was, in a
matter of few years.
Brian Williams: That's an incredible.
Christopher Reeve: Yeah, and that -
Brian Williams: - you're so high -
Christopher Reeve: - millions of people -
Brian Williams: My question is more of a reaction to
the last thing you said. And when you say with some clarity
and assurity that we're talking about cures for that group of
diseases, we all know people who have those diseases. In
just a few years - that's a very compelling argument.
Christopher Reeve: Yes. And because this research
is so new - I mean, it's only three years, it was 1998 that
scientists discovered these cells, and the potential that they
had of becoming tissue in the body. So you're dealing with
something very, very new.
But I think that without - everybody should not just
climb on from moral or ideological spot. The first job is to
become fully informed to what it's all about. And so, for
example, I mean many politicians that our group has talked
to, I mean the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Foundation,
you'd literally have to go in there and make a distinction and
say, 'A stem cell is a size of a dot made by a little...' It's a
pencil point. It's tiny. And, you know, it's headed for the
garbage anyway in these clinics.
We don't want to create embryos just for research.
We want to rescue these cells from the garbage. Then you
go, I don't understand how you can be opposed to that. I
don't. But, then, nothing's impossible.
However, I think there's a ground-swell of grass roots
support... And I think that one of the greatest things
President Bush could do is to take this opportunity to say, 'I
know that during the campaign I said I was against
embryonic stem cell research. But now I've listened to
everybody on all sides, and I've changed my mind.' And
that would be so great. That would really endear him to the
American people.
Brian Williams: Thank you.
Christopher Reeve: My pleasure, thank you
Brian Williams: Christopher, what is your basic
position on this, right now, incendiary issue of stem cell
research?
Christopher Reeve: I see it in terms of logic. And I
think logic should be applied to any moral dilemma. So, if
you start with a couple of facts and a question. The first fact
is that 100 million Americans stand to benefit from all kinds
of stem cell research. And for some patients, like ALS
patients, it's the only help.
Second fact, is that for 40 years fertility clinics, which
have to be licensed by the state, have routinely been
throwing out excess fertilized embryos into the garbage.
So, the question, if you believe that life begins the
moment an egg is fertilized, then doesn't it follow that
murder - state sanctioned murder - is routinely going on
in fertility clinics? And wouldn't you want to put a stop to
that because it's immoral? And I don't see that happening. I
see a major disconnect. And the reason there is this
disconnect is because, today, one-in-six American couples
are using fertility clinics. And, second of all, it's big business.
Just one try is $25,000.
So, any politician that goes home and says, 'We are
now gonna shut down fertility clinics because it's destroying
life,' would never get back in office. And that, for me sitting
in a wheelchair, for somebody with ALS is tremendously
hypocritical. So I - just to pick an opponent at random,
[Sam Brownback, R-Ka.] from Kansas says, 'It's illegal,
immoral, and unnecessary to do this research.' And then I
asked him - we were on a panel together - I said, 'Well,
where are... fertility clinics, because you're killing life with
state approval?'
And he said, 'I hadn't really thought about that.' That,
to me, is a big affront. You know there has - you haven't
thought about it? So I believe the question is you wouldn't
get elected, you would not be back in the Senate if you tried
to close them down.
And one other point to make is that the AMA, the
American Medical Association, recognizes infertility as a
disease that can be treated. And that at least 12 state's
insurance will cover it. So, I'm looking at the size of the
equation. I'm looking at how many people have lives to be
saved. What progress could happen in terms of pro-life.
Pro-life is also for the living. And I thank God that there is
now a ground-swell of support, you know, from really the
strongest... to understand the distinction between a fertilized
embryo headed for the garbage, and an embryo... that will
become a life. So you can be pro-life, and pro-stem cell.
Period.
Brian Williams: The pope today - Associated
Press: Pope John Paul II urged President Bush to bar using
human embryos for medical research saying, Monday, 'That
America has a moral responsibility to reject sanctions that
devalue and violate human life.' That's the position you're
up against.
Christopher Reeve: Yeah, but that's the pope. And
there's a big difference - and with all due respect, you
know that there's a big difference between the the hierarchy
of the church, the pope, the cardinals, the bishops, and the
rank and file member of the Catholic Church.
So, for example, your average Catholic has to decide
what part of the religious doctrine they're going to follow
and what not. Many people believe, for example, that
priests should marry. Because priests give marriage
counseling. Now, if they're not married, and a lot of them
are even, you know, caught - questionable practices in
their own lives, how are they gonna do effective marriage
counseling?
And there's the question of contraception, birth
control. Because individuals get to decide whether they
want to have more children or not? That's what most
Catholics are up against.
So, I'm very glad that - as I understand it - that the
president did not give the pope any assurance or direct
answer.
And now we're in a position where 60 senators- 60
senators from both parties, obviously, support federal
funding for this research. And there've been tremendous
conversions of... people like Bill Frist, right, who himself is a
doctor, and an anti-abortionist, and a very strong Catholic.
Strom Thurmond, who I would have thought was absolutely
unmovable, has a daughter with diabetes, and that this is her
best hope of survival. And, again pro-life means for the
living.
Brian Williams: When you -
Christopher Reeve: I mean, we are used to
governmental control. On the local, state, and federal level
they should be there. That's why 12 year olds aren't
allowed to drive cars. That's why the state says you have to
go to school until you're 16. So, you know, there has to be
some purpose for government, and that's why we elect
people, that's why we have this system, to avoid absolute
chaos.
So, when it comes down to this, the stem cell issue,
and you look at the fact that all 50 states license fertility
clinics, then why aren't the opponents trying to approach
the state legislatures and say, 'This is inappropriate for a
state to do?' It's not happening anywhere, as far as I'm
aware.
If someone can tell me where there's legislation
introduced in the state house to shut down fertility clinics, I'll
be amazed. I don't think you can find it in one out of 50.
Brian Williams: The opponents of this say, almost to
a person, the issue shouldn't be about embryonic stem cells.
There are plenty of adult stem cells out there. What's wrong
with that?
Christopher Reeve: They're missing some very vital
information. This whole matter is a question of education, as
a matter of fact. Now, yes, adult stem cells are found in the
brain, they're found in the spinal cord. They're found in
bone marrow. However, these are cells that already have an
identity. They're already doing some kind of a job in the
body. So, would it be possible to engineer to be like
embryonic stem cells that can become any tissue in the
body? Well, perhaps.
But scientists could spend the next five years trying to
do that, and end up with either nothing, or end up with
basically pseudo-embryonic stem cells. But we have those
available now. And another five years of research on
something speculative, there's a lot of people gonna die in
the meantime, unnecessarily.
Brian Williams: How could this help you?
Christopher Reeve: Well, in my particular case, I
suffer from a very small area in the spinal cord, just below
the brain stem, in the second vertebrae, where I had a
hemorrhage in the middle of the cord. And this damage of
blood, what it did was it took the myelin coating off of some
nerves, and that's why I have very limited movement, can't
breathe on my own, etc. So, just a quick word, myelin is
like a rubber coating around a wire. And without that
coating the wire can't conduct electricity. So, myelin coats
the nerves. So, if you become de-myelinated, and the
signals from the brain don't go down to the nerves to their
target, the messages don't go through.
But, human embryonic stem cells can easily be
engineered to become myelin. And then they simply would
be put in, right at the site by injection. And the experiments
in the rat models are tremendous - tremendous.
I have literally seen rats who were paraplegic, and then
they [get] these cells - human embryonic stem cells
injected into mice or rats - mostly rats, they're a little bit
bigger. Anyway - and see these rats after this treatment,
six weeks later they're trying to climb out of their little...
where they're able to, literally able to, climb a rope ladder
with all four legs. And they're - you'd never know that
there's anything wrong with them.
And for me, I mean I need to talk about myself,
because I feel I'm not just representing spinal cord people.
You know, with re-myelination just in itself, that's what's
wrong with MS - it's what happens to people with MS. It
would also help people with stroke, it would help people
with Alzheimer's. You know, it just - the list of diseases is
unbelievable.
But, the ones that would be cured easier would be
Parkinson's and diabetes. Because, one, you have the
question of dopamine. And the other you have the question
of insulin. And the deficit is in a very small area of the brain.
So, you get the stem cells to be influenced. So to get them
to be dopamine is a pretty simple thing to do.
And I would bet, jet full steam ahead, Parkinson's and
diabetes could be wiped out, cured just like polio was, in a
matter of few years.
Brian Williams: That's an incredible.
Christopher Reeve: Yeah, and that -
Brian Williams: - you're so high -
Christopher Reeve: - millions of people -
Brian Williams: My question is more of a reaction to
the last thing you said. And when you say with some clarity
and assurity that we're talking about cures for that group of
diseases, we all know people who have those diseases. In
just a few years - that's a very compelling argument.
Christopher Reeve: Yes. And because this research
is so new - I mean, it's only three years, it was 1998 that
scientists discovered these cells, and the potential that they
had of becoming tissue in the body. So you're dealing with
something very, very new.
But I think that without - everybody should not just
climb on from moral or ideological spot. The first job is to
become fully informed to what it's all about. And so, for
example, I mean many politicians that our group has talked
to, I mean the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Foundation,
you'd literally have to go in there and make a distinction and
say, 'A stem cell is a size of a dot made by a little...' It's a
pencil point. It's tiny. And, you know, it's headed for the
garbage anyway in these clinics.
We don't want to create embryos just for research.
We want to rescue these cells from the garbage. Then you
go, I don't understand how you can be opposed to that. I
don't. But, then, nothing's impossible.
However, I think there's a ground-swell of grass roots
support... And I think that one of the greatest things
President Bush could do is to take this opportunity to say, 'I
know that during the campaign I said I was against
embryonic stem cell research. But now I've listened to
everybody on all sides, and I've changed my mind.' And
that would be so great. That would really endear him to the
American people.
Brian Williams: Thank you.
Christopher Reeve: My pleasure, thank you